Author Topic: Omnibus Sexual Harrassment in Media Discussion thread  (Read 16715 times)

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Offline Redamare

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2017, 08:56:09 PM »
For whatever its worth, this demonstrates why some many forum conversations quickly go off the rails.  I got my hackles up, then It appears to me that Janine got her hackles up.  If I had been more snarky as was my impulse, we be calling each other names by now over what was really a minor misunderstanding.   

I actually perceive this as being an issue in this forum. While this place seems less outright rude (direct attacks) it does seem overly snarky and less charitable to differing views than other messages board I've used. Enough so that I prefer to lurk than invest what I know to be an enormous amount of time debating or pointing out strawmen.

Back to lurk mode *vanishes into shadow*.

QFT. Personally, though, I can't resist the urge to weigh in.
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Offline stands2reason

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2017, 08:50:36 AM »
I tend to assume that whatever celebrities are really doing, we probably don't hear much about it. I thought it was obvious that celebrity culture and news was its own kind of theater; they are personas acting out a stereotype even when they're "not" acting. Now KS is an actor playing the pedarast boogeyman who is laughably out of touch by attempting to use gay culture as a shield. This stuff is so stilted, I assume it is probably just a script.

Offline Billzbub

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2017, 10:27:12 AM »
I have a question that I am looking for an actual response to, but I'm afraid it will be taken the wrong way.  Please read this question as a question, not as a statement.

Is Kevin Spacey (and anyone else in his situation) beyond redemption?  In other words, should he be condemned now and forever because of his monstrous act 30 years ago (assuming this was a one-time event, which is probably not true, but for the sake of discussion about redemption)?
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Online bimble

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2017, 10:30:19 AM »
I have a question that I am looking for an actual response to, but I'm afraid it will be taken the wrong way.  Please read this question as a question, not as a statement.

Is Kevin Spacey (and anyone else in his situation) beyond redemption?  In other words, should he be condemned now and forever because of his monstrous act 30 years ago (assuming this was a one-time event, which is probably not true, but for the sake of discussion about redemption)?

I guess it partly depends on whether it was a single drunken moment, or as more stories start to come out, a pattern of behaviour

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2017, 12:59:16 PM »
I have a question that I am looking for an actual response to, but I'm afraid it will be taken the wrong way.  Please read this question as a question, not as a statement.

Is Kevin Spacey (and anyone else in his situation) beyond redemption?  In other words, should he be condemned now and forever because of his monstrous act 30 years ago (assuming this was a one-time event, which is probably not true, but for the sake of discussion about redemption)?

I guess it partly depends on whether it was a single drunken moment, or as more stories start to come out, a pattern of behaviour
Even if its a pattern of behavior I wouldn't put him beyond redemption.   If he did this regularly from 40ish to 10 ish years ago but there's no evidence of this sort of behavior in the last 10 years, what would you say then?

Don't get me wrong, he should still pay for his crime and would still be under under a cloud of suspicion that others wont' be but, I would take actual evidence of changed behavior into account.

Online Harry Black

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2017, 01:52:47 PM »
I have a question that I am looking for an actual response to, but I'm afraid it will be taken the wrong way.  Please read this question as a question, not as a statement.

Is Kevin Spacey (and anyone else in his situation) beyond redemption?  In other words, should he be condemned now and forever because of his monstrous act 30 years ago (assuming this was a one-time event, which is probably not true, but for the sake of discussion about redemption)?
He isnt facing jail afaik so yeah, social consequences and stigma for molesting a child 30 years ago that will follow him until he dies seems like a fair trade for all the success and fun he had in the years between then and now.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2017, 05:01:20 PM »
If Hollywood unanimously declared that any and all persons found within a reasonable standard of proof to have committed some form of intentional sexual assault should be barred from working in that arena again, I would have zero problem with it.  Bottom line is all the contrition and apologies in the world doesn't undo the harm you caused so why should they undo the consequences you earned?

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2017, 05:04:40 PM »
If Hollywood unanimously declared that any and all persons found within a reasonable standard of proof to have committed some form of intentional sexual assault should be barred from working in that arena again, I would have zero problem with it.  Bottom line is all the contrition and apologies in the world doesn't undo the harm you caused so why should they undo the consequences you earned?
If extrapolated to society generally this would be a terrible idea.  Permanently barring folks from work for past crimes?

Would you be ok with barring a welder form every welding again if he was guilty of a sexual assault?

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2017, 05:09:26 PM »
If Hollywood unanimously declared that any and all persons found within a reasonable standard of proof to have committed some form of intentional sexual assault should be barred from working in that arena again, I would have zero problem with it.  Bottom line is all the contrition and apologies in the world doesn't undo the harm you caused so why should they undo the consequences you earned?
If extrapolated to society generally this would be a terrible idea.  Permanently barring folks from work for past crimes?

Would you be ok with barring a welder form every welding again if he was guilty of a sexual assault?

I feel like Hollywood is pretty different from most other professions in this regard.  It's not just a profession but a society with its own subculture with its own rules and codes of conduct.  That said, if the welder attempted to rape their apprentice then yeah, cast them out and don't look back. You betray the community, you can't be trusted. If you truly are contrite and sorry about your horrendous actions, then you don't need to be let back in to feel that way.

Online Harry Black

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2017, 05:12:50 PM »
If Hollywood unanimously declared that any and all persons found within a reasonable standard of proof to have committed some form of intentional sexual assault should be barred from working in that arena again, I would have zero problem with it.  Bottom line is all the contrition and apologies in the world doesn't undo the harm you caused so why should they undo the consequences you earned?
If extrapolated to society generally this would be a terrible idea.  Permanently barring folks from work for past crimes?

Would you be ok with barring a welder form every welding again if he was guilty of a sexual assault?
I dont have a problem with Kevin Spacey being a welder.
Unfortunately, in his chosen profession, being likeable is part of the consideration of whether or not to associate you with a film.
He works on a project by project basis, should employers be obliged to pay him millions and take the hit in ticket sales? For how long?

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2017, 05:45:21 PM »
If Hollywood unanimously declared that any and all persons found within a reasonable standard of proof to have committed some form of intentional sexual assault should be barred from working in that arena again, I would have zero problem with it.  Bottom line is all the contrition and apologies in the world doesn't undo the harm you caused so why should they undo the consequences you earned?
If extrapolated to society generally this would be a terrible idea.  Permanently barring folks from work for past crimes?

Would you be ok with barring a welder form every welding again if he was guilty of a sexual assault?
I dont have a problem with Kevin Spacey being a welder.
Unfortunately, in his chosen profession, being likeable is part of the consideration of whether or not to associate you with a film.
He works on a project by project basis, should employers be obliged to pay him millions and take the hit in ticket sales? For how long?
I wouldn't single actor's out for special treatment because they're actors.  If folks stop going to his movies, then I'd expect he'd loose work on account of it.  Maybe, he'll lose work just for fear of folks not wanting to watch him.  I'm fine with that.  I'd have issues with the industry if they started blackballing folks for 30 year old crimes.  On the other hand, that's not a real problem, the opposite is clearly more true.  Actors can almost literally get away with murder and still have huge careers.


Online Harry Black

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2017, 07:31:58 PM »
So they still have to cast him despite reading of public sentiment indicating that the public dont like him?
I thought you were a libertarian?

Also, a 30 year old crime of child molestation. I dont think its ever too late to pay. And this is a small price to be honest, he is almost at retirement age and likely has enough money to live a very comfortable life or two.
And you are correct. Hollywood is too forgiving for my tastes.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2017, 08:55:02 PM »
I don’t think he said anything about them having to hire him; in fact, I’m pretty sure he said that he was fine with them choosing not to hire him.  I think what he’s saying is that he would not rule out the possibility of rehabilitation.  I think I agree with him; in most cases I think that, if we are to really hope for a rehabilitative system of justice, we must not close off the possibility of a productive career for those we rehabilitate.  I think there is room for prudence; an embezzler should probably never again have a career in finance, a child molester should probably not have a job working with children, a fraudster should not have a position of leadership in or take donations for his work in skepticism, etc.

But this is a hypothetical case right now; Kevin Spacey has not yet showed that he realizes the seriousness of his crimes or taken accountability for them, and that is a prerequisite for rehabilitation, in my opinion.  Until he does, receives treatment, etc., I think it is premature to discus his return to acting.
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2017, 09:24:03 PM »
So they still have to cast him despite reading of public sentiment indicating that the public dont like him?
I thought you were a libertarian?

(click to show/hide)
Didn't say I'd make it illegal.

Online Harry Black

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Re: Kevin Spacey (FROM Joshie Berger is, well, you know)
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2017, 09:45:28 PM »
So they still have to cast him despite reading of public sentiment indicating that the public dont like him?
I thought you were a libertarian?

(click to show/hide)
Didn't say I'd make it illegal.
Do you think they have a moral obligation to hire him?
I would disagree if so. He is added to the sadly long list of people my money no longer goes to since his success, acclaim and wealth seemingly enabled and concealed his behaviour.

Regarding rehab- I may be inclined to believe the word of an impartial expert on that but if his statement had happened to be a believable apology, my thought process would be:
He is an oscar winning actor.
He has a team of publicists available to help him fool me.
He has served no time. Undergone no proactive treatment for his behaviour.

He didnt shoplift. He molested a child.

 

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