Author Topic: Episode #657  (Read 3457 times)

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Offline Steven Novella

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Episode #657
« on: February 10, 2018, 12:03:18 PM »
What’s the Word: Analemma; News Items: Falcon Heavy Launch, Egyptian Dinosaurs, Extragalactic Planets, Vulnerability to Fake News; Who’s That Noisy; Your Questions and E-mails: GMOs and Glyphosate; Science or Fiction
Steven Novella
Host, The Skeptics Guide
snovella@theness.com

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Episode #657
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 10:02:13 AM »
With regard to the Fake News study, I'd really like to see one that doesn't just give an esoteric fact that is shown to be wrong, but try it with something that people already agree with.  Like tell a Trump supporter that 'Russia actually didn't meddle in the US election' and then show that was wrong.

I'm wondering if that would turn out differently.

#non-belief denialist

Offline Atheist Panda

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Re: Episode #657 - Who's That Noisy
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 06:15:21 PM »
Finally, one I know the answer to....

This demonstrates a phenomenon where, if the listener is familiar with the song, he/she hears the lyrics being sung, despite the song having no vocal track, merely an oscillating melody.

If you're not familiar with the lyrics, you hear an odd melody being played.

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I'm suffering from CDO... It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order, just as they should be...

Offline Skip Nordenholz

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Re: Episode #657
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 06:59:05 PM »
Whose that noisy, for 10/2/2018, to me sound like someone did some kind of spectral analysis of a Bee Gees song (Staying Alive), and then wrote some algorithm to reconstruct the spectrum with lots of piano notes.

Offline DamoET

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Re: Episode #657
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 12:12:35 AM »
Great show again guys, just wanted to point out that at the moment, that (if I remember correctly) the Earth is actually closer to the sun in the southern hemispheres 'summer' months.  Trivially closer, but closer non the less.


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Do not fear God, fear ignorance.  For ignorance will lead you to fearing 'God' (and a whole bunch of other whacky shit!)

Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: Episode #657
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 01:37:56 AM »
Perihelion occurs a couple of weeks after the December solstice. It changes by a day or so year to year but overall is gradually moving forward in the calendar (by approx 25 minutes / year).

Offline God Bomb

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Re: Episode #657
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 02:29:03 AM »
That's not how you pronounce Nathalie.  Especially given the woman was Belgian and the 'th' sound doesn't even exist in French (or Dutch).

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Offline Epicurus

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Re: Episode #657
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 07:58:01 AM »
Any mention of having Brian Dunning on the show and showing no skepticism of his account of fraud?

Offline gebobs

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Re: Episode #657
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 09:36:39 AM »
Science is being quashed, not "squashed". Oy!

Offline Isranner

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Re: Episode #657 - Your Questions and E-mails: GMOs and Glyphosate
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 12:05:23 PM »
Quote from: Steven Novella
[1:08:56] "[A]nd if you want to favor farming that uses no pesticides then, frankly, you are a privileged elitist who doesn't care if half the world starves because there's absolutely no way we can feed the world without using pesticides, period."

The Kantian universalisability principle fallacy: If everyone became an MD like Steve, the world would starve to death. If everyone were consuming as much meat as Steve, there wouldn't be enough farming land to feed the world. If everyone lived in a single-family detached home with a large garden like Steve, the world would run out of arable land. If everyone installed solar panels on the roof of their home like Steve, the world would generate a lot of excess power when sunny and not enough during the night and the darker hours of the day or when cloudy. If everyone went on vacation to Hawaii like Steve, the world would ruin Hawaii.

«I fully reject the Kantian universalizability principle that underlies so much of contemporary moral discussion. What if everyone acted the way you did? is not a useful means-test for one’s actions.»

— Michael Malice. "Why I won't vote this year – or any year." The Guardian (2014-10-14)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/14/why-i-will-not-vote

"The big criticism of Mike Pence's rule about being alone with women stems from a quintessential left-wing idea that one's behavior must be universalizable."
— Michael Malice (2017-11-17)
https://twitter.com/michaelmalice/status/931628039716339713

• Michael Malice (guest), Steve Patterson (host). "Egoism, Religion, Ayn Rand | Michael Malice." Patterson in Pursuit (2016-05-22) ep. 7 [57 min]
http://steve-patterson.com/ep-7-egoism-religion-ayn-rand-michael-malice

• Michael Malice (guest), Thomas E Woods Jr (host). "Voting: Yes or No?" The Tom Woods Show (2016-06-10) ep. 679 [42 min]
https://tomwoods.com/ep-679-voting-yes-or-no

• Michael Malice (guest), Thomas E Woods Jr (host). "Rothbard v. Rand? Michael Malice and Tom Discuss." The Tom Woods Show (2017-01-05) ep. 818 [37 min]
https://tomwoods.com/ep-818-rothbard-v-rand-michael-malice-and-tom-discuss

• Michael Malice (guest), Thomas E Woods Jr (host). "The Real Reason Libertarians Don’t Matter in Politics?" The Tom Woods Show (2016-10-18) ep. 761 [29 min]
https://tomwoods.com/ep-761-the-real-reason-libertarians-dont-matter-in-politics
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 12:31:32 PM by Isranner »

Offline God Bomb

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Re: Episode #657 - Your Questions and E-mails: GMOs and Glyphosate
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 08:47:16 PM »

The Kantian universalisability principle fallacy: If everyone became an MD like Steve, the world would starve to death. If everyone were consuming as much meat as Steve, there wouldn't be enough farming land to feed the world. If everyone lived in a single-family detached home with a large garden like Steve, the world would run out of arable land. If everyone installed solar panels on the roof of their home like Steve, the world would generate a lot of excess power when sunny and not enough during the night and the darker hours of the day or when cloudy. If everyone went on vacation to Hawaii like Steve, the world would ruin Hawaii.


Interesting I never heard that fallacy before.  Does it really extrapolate though?  If everyone went to Hawaii like Steve, Hawaii would be ruined.  True.  But is that a real threat?  But "What if everyone acted the way you did?" is a serious question when applied to organic farming as there is an actual body of people lobbying against non-organic farming and pressuring people to only eat organic produce.  One of these threats exists in the real world and the other does not.

Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn.

Online Sawyer

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Re: Episode #657 - Your Questions and E-mails: GMOs and Glyphosate
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 09:56:32 PM »
Quote from: Steven Novella
[1:08:56] "[A]nd if you want to favor farming that uses no pesticides then, frankly, you are a privileged elitist who doesn't care if half the world starves because there's absolutely no way we can feed the world without using pesticides, period."

The Kantian universalisability principle fallacy: If everyone became an MD like Steve, the world would starve to death. If everyone were consuming as much meat as Steve, there wouldn't be enough farming land to feed the world. If everyone lived in a single-family detached home with a large garden like Steve, the world would run out of arable land. If everyone installed solar panels on the roof of their home like Steve, the world would generate a lot of excess power when sunny and not enough during the night and the darker hours of the day or when cloudy. If everyone went on vacation to Hawaii like Steve, the world would ruin Hawaii.

«I fully reject the Kantian universalizability principle that underlies so much of contemporary moral discussion. What if everyone acted the way you did? is not a useful means-test for one’s actions.»

— Michael Malice. "Why I won't vote this year – or any year." The Guardian (2014-10-14)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/14/why-i-will-not-vote

"The big criticism of Mike Pence's rule about being alone with women stems from a quintessential left-wing idea that one's behavior must be universalizable."
— Michael Malice (2017-11-17)
https://twitter.com/michaelmalice/status/931628039716339713

• Michael Malice (guest), Steve Patterson (host). "Egoism, Religion, Ayn Rand | Michael Malice." Patterson in Pursuit (2016-05-22) ep. 7 [57 min]
http://steve-patterson.com/ep-7-egoism-religion-ayn-rand-michael-malice

• Michael Malice (guest), Thomas E Woods Jr (host). "Voting: Yes or No?" The Tom Woods Show (2016-06-10) ep. 679 [42 min]
https://tomwoods.com/ep-679-voting-yes-or-no

• Michael Malice (guest), Thomas E Woods Jr (host). "Rothbard v. Rand? Michael Malice and Tom Discuss." The Tom Woods Show (2017-01-05) ep. 818 [37 min]
https://tomwoods.com/ep-818-rothbard-v-rand-michael-malice-and-tom-discuss

• Michael Malice (guest), Thomas E Woods Jr (host). "The Real Reason Libertarians Don’t Matter in Politics?" The Tom Woods Show (2016-10-18) ep. 761 [29 min]
https://tomwoods.com/ep-761-the-real-reason-libertarians-dont-matter-in-politics

Dr. Novella is *not* making this fallacy in the quote you provided.  In fact I have a vague recollection of him discussing this kind of fallacy on the show before, so I doubt it's something he's unaware of.

No one is saying "everyone has to do X, Y, and Z to feed the world."  His point is that by throwing your lot in with the anti-GMO crowd, either by repeating their dishonest talking-points or financially rewarding them by exclusively demanding organic foods, you are helping them in their mission to deny GMO products to everyone.  And that is their underlying mission, second only to their desire to make a less scientifically literate planet.  This has been covered a dozen times on the podcast.  You do not have to accept any particular school of philosophy to understand this, or to understand the context of Steve's above quote.


Offline sowellfan

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Re: Episode #657
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 11:08:36 AM »
Any mention of having Brian Dunning on the show and showing no skepticism of his account of fraud?
Nope, no mentions of Dunning whatsoever.

Offline Isranner

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Re: Episode #657 - Your Questions and E-mails: GMOs and Glyphosate
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2018, 04:55:48 PM »
If everyone went to Hawaii like Steve, Hawaii would be ruined.  True.  But is that a real threat?  But "What if everyone acted the way you did?" is a serious question when applied to organic farming as there is an actual body of people lobbying against non-organic farming and pressuring people to only eat organic produce.  One of these threats exists in the real world and the other does not.

"One of these threats exists in the real world" just in your imagination.

Offline Isranner

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Re: Episode #657 - Your Questions and E-mails: GMOs and Glyphosate
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 05:27:05 PM »
Dr. Novella is *not* making this fallacy in the quote you provided. […] No one is saying "everyone has to do X, Y, and Z to feed the world."  His point is that by throwing your lot in with the anti-GMO crowd, either by repeating their dishonest talking-points or financially rewarding them by exclusively demanding organic foods, you are helping them in their mission to deny GMO products to everyone.  And that is their underlying mission, second only to their desire to make a less scientifically literate planet.  This has been covered a dozen times on the podcast.  You do not have to accept any particular school of philosophy to understand this, or to understand the context of Steve's above quote.

Straw man. Steve Novella specifically referred to "favor[ing] farming that uses no pesticides" in the line that I quoted. On the other hand, you're seeing hidden intentions in "the anti-GMO crowd":

«Do you remember the time you changed a stranger’s political opinion on the Internet by using your logic and your accurate data?
Probably not. Because that rarely happens. If you were paying attention during the past year, you learned facts don’t matter to our decisions. We think they do, but they don’t. At least not for topics in which we are emotionally invested, such as politics.  (Obviously facts do matter to the outcomes. But not to decisions.)

[…]
Generally, you can’t change people’s minds, but you can back them into a corner and make them show a “tell” for cognitive dissonance. That’s essentially a white flag that says, “I have no logical argument, so I will say something ridiculous and act as though it is not.”
The problem with cognitive dissonance is that it can be hard to know whether your opponent is experiencing it or you are. It looks exactly the same to you. The person in the illusion can’t tell the difference. You need some sort of simple and objective sign to know when cognitive dissonance is in play and which one of you is experiencing it. And I have just that.
You can detect cognitive dissonance by the following tells:

[…]
The Psychic Psychiatrist Illusion
The Psychic Psychiatrist Illusion involves imagining you can discern the inner thoughts and motives of strangers. I’m talking about the unspoken thoughts and feelings of strangers, not the things they have actually said. If your debate opponents retreat to magical thinking about their abilities to detect secret motives and mental problems in strangers from a distance, you won.»


— Scott Adams. "How to Know You Won a Political Debate on the Internet." Scott Adams' Blog (May 15, 2017)
http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/05/15/how-to-know-you-won-a-political-debate-on-the
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 06:29:53 PM by Isranner »

 

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