Author Topic: Opening Arguments #TTTBE  (Read 38714 times)

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Online daniel1948

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #690 on: November 09, 2019, 01:58:36 PM »
I shouldn't be held accountable for the contractor bad decisions.

The contractor did not make a bad decision, though; he made a decision in expectation of the fulfillment of the contract.

I contend that he made an unreasonable decision when he expected that money due to him on June 1 could be in his hands in time to pay for the car, given banking hours and that the homeowner might not have gotten home until late.

I believe that "reasonable expectation" is an actual thing in law, and that it's reasonable to expect, at least in the U.S. with our backward banking system, that transfers of money generally take several days.

With reference to the car, the contractor's expectation was unreasonable.

The judge could award whatever penalty the law allows for outright refusal to pay, however. But such penalties are not listed in the choices, unless one takes D as an oblique way of penalizing the homeowner. So D is my second choice, but only if the judge specifies that the extra $3K is because the homeowner was being an asshole.

(Faulkner writes of a case where a man is accused to operating a still. The man denies any knowledge of the still. He's asked about the trail that runs for two (?) miles directly from his house to the still. The man says he never uses that trail, that it's the trail his wife walks to fetch water from the river. So the judge sends the man to jail for making his wife walk four miles every day for water. My point being that judges have a certain amount of discretion.)
Daniel
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #691 on: November 09, 2019, 03:50:56 PM »
The law really doesn’t work like you think it does, Daniel.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #692 on: November 09, 2019, 04:25:36 PM »
I shouldn't be held accountable for the contractor bad decisions.

The contractor did not make a bad decision, though; he made a decision in expectation of the fulfillment of the contract.

I contend that he made an unreasonable decision when he expected that money due to him on June 1 could be in his hands in time to pay for the car, given banking hours and that the homeowner might not have gotten home until late.

So you're saying that if the homeowner hadn't breached the contract, and paid in full and on time, then for reasons not specified in the question, the contractor couldn't have made the payment on time to get the discount on the car purchase?

If that were the case, then the contractor would not have a case against the homeowner. So basically the homeowner opened the door to this liability by breaching the contract.

Quote
I believe that "reasonable expectation" is an actual thing in law, and that it's reasonable to expect, at least in the U.S. with our backward banking system, that transfers of money generally take several days.

But that's not in the question, no is it relevant to any of the answer choices.

And it's not relevant anyway, because there was no money transfer as required by the contract.

Quote
With reference to the car, the contractor's expectation was unreasonable.

What's unreasonable about expecting to be paid in full on time under a contract.

Quote
The judge could award whatever penalty the law allows for outright refusal to pay, however. But such penalties are not listed in the choices, unless one takes D as an oblique way of penalizing the homeowner. So D is my second choice, but only if the judge specifies that the extra $3K is because the homeowner was being an asshole.

No. The judge can't make up reasons to make the homeowner pay more. Whatever the judge does has to follow the law.

And if the option isn't in the answers provided we know that's not correct.

One of those is correct for the reason stated.
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Online daniel1948

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #693 on: November 09, 2019, 05:12:58 PM »
If the contractor could not have made the car payment, even with an on-time payment from the homeowner, then the homeowner's failure to pay the contractor was not the cause of the contractor's inability to pay for the car on June 1.

Put it another way: The contractor could not have paid for the car on June 1 no matter what happened. Therefore the homeowner is not responsible for the contractor's inability to pay for the car on time.

And judges use their own discretion all the time. They use it to give black people longer sentences and to give middle-class white people probation for the same crime they'd send a black person to prison for.

The law really doesn’t work like you think it does, Daniel.

The law doesn't work like the law says it should work. The law says all people are equal before the law, and we know that's not true. The law says an accused person has a right to a prompt trial, but I've met guys who sat in jail for five or six months waiting for trial because they could not afford a private lawyer and their public defender was too overworked to make court dates and had to ask for delays. That's criminal law not civil law, but in civil law also, how well your case is presented counts for more than who has the law on their side. Case law often rules, and researching the case law in order to present a strong case can take many hours of costly lawyer's time. It's never simple or straightforward.

I don't doubt that the show will have a clean-cut answer to the question. But a good enough lawyer could argue any of those four answers and get his or her way if he/she is clever enough and the opposing lawyer is not. A good lawyer would find a dozen precedent-setting cases for any of those answers. And if it's small-claims court with no lawyers, a motivated judge could find reasons for any of them.

The law doesn't work like most people think it does. Nobody really knows the law. Lawyers learn where to look to find the law, and to find arguments that will support their side of the case. A good judge can discern which arguments are valid. Many judges are not so good. Many judges' rulings are overturned on appeal  because the judge failed to follow the law, but that only happens when you have the money to pay a lawyer to appeal. (Except in death-penalty cases, where you get a public defender for your appeals.)
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #694 on: November 09, 2019, 09:19:45 PM »
Daniel, we are playing a game in which we attempt to determine the correct answer to bar exam questions. Each of these questions has been designed by lawyers to test understanding of specific legal principles and contain ALL of the facts needed to answer the questions without any speculation about other facts.  The point is to spot the legal issue being tested and to apply the facts to that issue. That’s how the bar exam works, and that’s how the game we’re playing works.

You are not playing the game.  You are using it as an opportunity to air your personal opinions and grievances with the law.  It is off topic, and it’s rude.  If you want to make a thread about how stupid the bar exam is, fine.  But don’t interrupt our game with your irrelevant blather.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Online daniel1948

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #695 on: November 10, 2019, 10:05:48 AM »
I may be playing the game badly, but I'm attempting to give the answer I think is correct, and arguing why I think it is. But I don't see how anybody can hope to answer the questions "correctly" without having gone to law school and studied law. But I apologize if I've inadvertently come off as rude.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #696 on: November 10, 2019, 10:16:48 AM »
I don't see how anybody can hope to answer the questions "correctly" without having gone to law school and studied law.

That’s the game


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #697 on: November 10, 2019, 11:03:01 AM »
But I don't see how anybody can hope to answer the questions "correctly" without having gone to law school and studied law. But I apologize if I've inadvertently come off as rude.

One doesn’t have to attend law school to learn about the law. I studied constitutional law as an undergraduate minoring in political science and I’ve read extensively on legal topics. Those of us who listen to Opening Arguments have learned a lot about all areas of the law. We’ve also been exposed to over a hundred bar exam questions and received thorough explanations of the answers from a lawyer.  In that process, we’ve learned a lot about issue spotting and the way bar exam questions work.

You may not see how a non-lawyer can hope to answer correctly, but If you look back over previous weeks you’ll find that we actually do pretty well.  Quite aside from my current improbable streak, there are several of us who are significantly above chance. You are welcome to participate in the game, but please try to understand it and keep your personal opinions out of it. And please accept as true what we are telling you: that speculation about facts not explicitly stated in the question, about what lawyers might argue and judges might do contrary to the law and precedent is always going to be irrelevant. Always.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline xenu

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #698 on: November 10, 2019, 07:44:39 PM »
Answer to #152

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Offline xenu

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #699 on: November 10, 2019, 07:51:21 PM »
I have found that except for a few situations the law for the most part is fairly common sense. There are times when it might seem obtuse and weird, but it is written by people. There are some questions that test direct knowledge of the law but for the most part it is straight forward. This by no means explains why I am below 50% in my correct answers.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 07:54:17 PM by xenu »
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Online daniel1948

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #700 on: November 10, 2019, 09:12:54 PM »
Inside a spoiler tag because the answer above was.:

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Daniel
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Offline xenu

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #701 on: November 16, 2019, 12:02:57 PM »

Question#153
I am not sure if this is the end of the segment. We will see next week.

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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #702 on: November 16, 2019, 01:52:18 PM »
Ugh.  I hate hearsay questions.  You basically have to have memorized the relevant rules of evidence; they really can't be reasoned out from any general principle.  For all I know there's some specific rule that statements relied upon in medical diagnosis are allowed.  I think it comes down to A or C; I'll go with A, but I'm not at all confident.

I am not sure if this is the end of the segment. We will see next week.

I haven't listened yet. Are they really considering ending the segment?  It's by far my favorite segment and, I think, one of the most educational ones.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline xenu

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #703 on: November 16, 2019, 04:32:21 PM »
Quote
   I haven't listened yet. Are they really considering ending the segment?  It's by far my favorite segment and, I think, one of the most educational ones.   

I'm not sure. They said they went through all the questions they were given. I don't know if there is a study guide with practice questions or not. Not sure what they will do or what their options are.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Opening Arguments #TTTBE
« Reply #704 on: November 16, 2019, 07:18:36 PM »
Quote
   I haven't listened yet. Are they really considering ending the segment?  It's by far my favorite segment and, I think, one of the most educational ones.   

I'm not sure. They said they went through all the questions they were given. I don't know if there is a study guide with practice questions or not. Not sure what they will do or what their options are.

They should do them all over again. ( I think I would do better the second time!)
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

 

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