Author Topic: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK  (Read 10370 times)

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Offline PANTS!

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 01:43:07 PM »
Whoo, boy, you are an easy mark.
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Offline gebobs

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 02:07:42 PM »
Whoo, boy, you are an easy mark.

Whoops...forgot the winkie smiley.

Of course, when the Russians say that, it makes them look all the more guilty. I mean who in their right mind would even believe that for a second? They could have said they stopped production of novichok because it was too unstable or too dangerous to produce. Or they could have said their chemweaps production was only for research or defensive purposes. But to claim they stopped production entirely is laughable and indicates they are hiding something.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2018, 03:02:07 PM »
Obviously, the novichok could not have come from the Russians. According to the Russian ambassador to the UK, the Russians stopped production of all chemical agents in 1992.

QED

And of course, Russia is well-known for being an honest, transparent country with free and fair elections.

Russia claims that the gas comes from either the UK, the US, Sweden, Slovakia, or the Czech Republic. Of course, one of these countries did it. They clearly have an interest in killing a Russian informant living in the UK.

Offline God Bomb

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2018, 03:52:39 AM »
Has anyone explicitly come out and said they the Russian denial is laughable and they aren't fooling anyone.    I know Boris Johnson made a few direct comments, but I think it needs to be said more emphatically how no one believes a word Putin is saying.

It's lying on a level with NK's statements after the assassination in Malayisa.  I just want someone prominent to stand up and say:

Stop reacting as if you are offended.  Your denial is laughable and no one believes you.

Either that or:

Putin either knowingly ordered this himself, or he has no control over his own secret service or knowledge of their actions.

I think I prefer the latter one, because it implies Putin is a liar and a killer or that he's not in complete control. 
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2018, 09:47:58 AM »
I believe that Governments do this stuff regularly. I think what is so striking about this one is that the Russians made it intentionally obvious that they did it and did it as payback. They did it to send a message to other people.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline goatboy1290

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2018, 08:59:04 AM »
Just to confirm..... I am not a Russian troll. My absence from the thread is related to my busy life as a teacher and a Dad. Investigating potential international conspiracy theories is just what I do for fun. And there just isn't enough time for that.

Well, a quick scan of the replies has unfortunately not yielded any penetrating analysis of the point I raised. I was picked up on my definition of a binary agent but please check my reply for  clarification of that. It would indeed be very interesting to know just how easy it is to acquire the two binary components of the Novichok agent. My research indicates that the chemicals were available in the pesticide industry precisely so they could be obtained without raising red flags. 

As the week has progressed the political situation has shifted such that the EU has been somewhat unified behind the UK in criticism of Russia. If Putin was behind the attack it has certainly backfired. If he wasn't then we have made a grave error and stoked cold war fears like never before. My pointis, all this has occurred without ANY NEW EVIDENCE. I am surprised that this point didn't get more traction here?

SB

Offline gebobs

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2018, 03:46:35 PM »
Just to confirm..... I am not a Russian troll.

Exactly what a Russian troll would have us believe! ;-)

Quote
As the week has progressed the political situation has shifted such that the EU has been somewhat unified behind the UK in criticism of Russia. If Putin was behind the attack it has certainly backfired. If he wasn't then we have made a grave error and stoked cold war fears like never before. My pointis, all this has occurred without ANY NEW EVIDENCE. I am surprised that this point didn't get more traction here?

From what I've heard, the Brits have been very careful in presenting their evidence to their allies. As much as we would all like to see that evidence, it may need a major leak and such a leak might put people or operations in danger. For example, it may be possible to chemically determine the source of the agent but divulging that method might give the Russians a clue as from whence the breach came.

There are now over 20 countries that have joined Britain by tossing Russians out. Nearly half of them are former Warsaw pact who one would think would be more than circumspect about evidence provided and wary of Russian responses.

Still, the world has been misled before, notably in the run up to the Iraq War.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2018, 03:53:36 PM »
As the week has progressed the political situation has shifted such that the EU has been somewhat unified behind the UK in criticism of Russia. If Putin was behind the attack it has certainly backfired. If he wasn't then we have made a grave error and stoked cold war fears like never before. My pointis, all this has occurred without ANY NEW EVIDENCE. I am surprised that this point didn't get more traction here?

It's not backfiring. Domestically, Putin benefits from tense relations with the West. It helps to rally his people around him against foreign enemies, consolidating his power.

Offline seamas

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Re: Novichock nerve agent attack...
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2018, 04:47:22 PM »
I believe it is my 2nd Amendment right to have vials of Novichock  for my own protection.

Offline goatboy1290

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Re: Re: Novichock nerve agent attack...
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2018, 05:03:40 PM »
The precise use of the term binary might have been poorly expressed but is not really of primary significance. What matters is the claim that such an agent can ONLY be created by a highly sophisticated military state. Perhaps so if the formula is held in secret, but if that formula and its method of synthesis is leaked we have a very different scenario. My point is that none of this is being discussed or considered at any level in public discourse and we are hurtling along a series of escalating measures.


'Binary chemical weapons or munitions are chemical weapons which contain the toxic agent in its active state as chemical precursors which are significantly less toxic than the agent. This improves the safety of storing, transporting, and disposing of the weapon.' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_chemical_weapon

or

'A munition in which chemical substances, held in separate containers, react when mixed or combined as a result of being fired, launched, or otherwise initiated to produce a chemical agent. See also munition.
Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms. US Department of Defense 2005.'
- https://www.thefreedictionary.com/binary+chemical+munition

 I perhaps did not stress that it is usually 2 agents that are held separately and then mixed to create the lethal compound. My apologies.

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Re: Novichock nerve agent attack...
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2018, 07:15:34 PM »
You're literally an idiot Putin-bot.

Read what the guy who invented it said.

https://thebell.io/en/the-scientist-who-developed-novichok-doses-ranged-from-20-grams-to-several-kilos/

Quote
– The media reported that “Novichok” supposedly exists as a “binary weapon” – the toxin is transferred via two less dangers substances, and when it is time to use the chemical agent, only then are the substances mixed together. It has also been suggested that “Novichok” could have been used for the attempt in London. Are the series of agents referred to as “Novichok” binary weapons?

– No one ever had any binary weapons. I think that several of my colleagues, just like I did, tried to work on this idea, but I don’t know a single binary weapon, not for VX, not for other types of chemical weapons. At least for the period up until 1994.

He even says very clearly that you're wrong.  So just stop already.

#non-belief denialist

Offline God Bomb

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2018, 09:21:03 PM »
As the week has progressed the political situation has shifted such that the EU has been somewhat unified behind the UK in criticism of Russia. If Putin was behind the attack it has certainly backfired. If he wasn't then we have made a grave error and stoked cold war fears like never before. My pointis, all this has occurred without ANY NEW EVIDENCE. I am surprised that this point didn't get more traction here?

It's not backfiring. Domestically, Putin benefits from tense relations with the West. It helps to rally his people around him against foreign enemies, consolidating his power.

Putin benefits from the illusion that Russia is still a superpower to rival the USA.
Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2018, 02:49:15 PM »
Salisbury nerve agent attack: Sergei Skripal and daughter Yulia 'should be allowed to die'

Truly a sad situation if they are expected to be severely mentally impaired even if they survive.

Online Rai

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2018, 06:36:40 AM »
Salisbury nerve agent attack: Sergei Skripal and daughter Yulia 'should be allowed to die'

Truly a sad situation if they are expected to be severely mentally impaired even if they survive.

Let's not be hasty, Yulia seems to be improving rapidly.

Offline goatboy1290

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Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2018, 07:38:31 AM »
Keep your hair on Belgarath. No need to resort to insults. I, like most people, operate in a relative vacuum of knowledge regarding many things reported by the media, especially in this case. That's why I come to forums such as this. I remain open to theories and present my own thoughts to play Devil's advocate. That does not mean I have settled at a position, nor will I defend it to the death. This new interview, if reliable, offers the most relevant info yet. If binary agents never existed it is interesting that textbooks and of course the media continually refer to them. The public ought to be brought up to date on these critical facts. That is the job of the media (supposedly!).

Now the interview also raises other concerns. If the agent is difficult to produce and dangerous to transport that suggests specialist (state) involvement. But, the article also makes clear that the knowledge of how to make the agent may be far from secret, and since chemical agents exist in families there may never be a definitive ID. Indeed, it is equally possible that over the decades the original formula was leaked and other states/agents/entities have progressed the formula. It seems totally unrealistic to assume that the chemical formula is the best way to identify the guilty party in this case. Instead the focus should be on the delivery of the agent. Find the people responsible with old fashioned police work.

At this point we come to the most troubling aspect from my point of view. It seems likely that the agent used was very fast working. 30 seconds to 2 mins was referenced in one article I read (see my original link 'The Conversation'). UK news are now reporting that it is likely that the agent was placed on the front door handle of the Skripal's house. One might assume, they then got in a car and went into town, possibly visiting a cemetery, a pub, a restaurant, finally falling seriously ill on a bench. This does not match the apparent lethal profile of the suggested agent(s). They should barely have made it to their car. I would imaging an ex Russian agent would be very worried if symptoms began to present in both him and his daughter. Surely you would seek immediate medical attention in a panic instead of going for a pint. They must have known they had been attacked. Perhaps it was a very low dose they received and they had some time. The description of the agents suggested does not seem to allow much room for this. They (the various agents) are super deadly and take virtually no time to act. This needs confirmed as if correct it means the current narrative simply cannot be true. It seems more likely that a less toxic agent was used or that the agent was placed in multiple locations but perhaps finally administered directly in the restaurant. Knowing the levels of chemical in their blood would help answer that.

Anyway, the search for truth goes on. We certainly don't have it yet.

Keep the links coming. I will be looking into this article more fully.

cheers.

 

personate-rain