Author Topic: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK  (Read 7394 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline goatboy1290

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #225 on: July 13, 2018, 05:54:08 PM »
The below was explained to you on the previous page of this thread:

I waited a long time for the OPCW report of the alleged Syrian Douma chemical attack. On this site I had the audacity to suggest that a Chemical warfare attack did not happen in this particular case. It seems I was right. The importance of this is of course tied up with the idea that our governments are regularly lying to us on matters of enormous importance, matters that often have deadly consequences abroad.


Dude, that is an outright lie.  OPCW did state that chemical weapons were used in Syria.  This is easily Googleable.  Chlorine is a chemical weapon.

The OPCW report stated that Chlorine samples of unknown source or concentration were found at TWO OTHER SITES but not at the site where people died. Chlorine is a household chemical, ubiquitous in cleaning products and it is easily sourced in large quantities. So until the concentrations measured are specified, the statement of 'detecting chlorine' means very little. Lets be honest , if they had anything concrete do you not think in the current climate they would hammer the point home like a stake through the heart of the Russian/Syrian position? No, they are fudging the issue because they have squat! The main issue is the dead Syrians DID NOT DIE OF CHLORINE POISONING.

So it seems to summarise that despite the might and murderous intent of the Syrians and Russians they just cannot seem to kill anyone with chemical or nerve agents. They seem to suck at it.

Don't you guys think that is just a little weird? huh.....maybe its just me. I expect if nations use chemical weapons that somebody might actually die!


Offline PANTS!

  • One leg at a time.
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10704
  • What seals? I auditioned for this job.
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #226 on: July 13, 2018, 06:58:14 PM »
The below was explained to you on the previous page of this thread:

I waited a long time for the OPCW report of the alleged Syrian Douma chemical attack. On this site I had the audacity to suggest that a Chemical warfare attack did not happen in this particular case. It seems I was right. The importance of this is of course tied up with the idea that our governments are regularly lying to us on matters of enormous importance, matters that often have deadly consequences abroad.


Dude, that is an outright lie.  OPCW did state that chemical weapons were used in Syria.  This is easily Googleable.  Chlorine is a chemical weapon.

The OPCW report stated that Chlorine samples of unknown source or concentration were found at TWO OTHER SITES but not at the site where people died. Chlorine is a household chemical, ubiquitous in cleaning products and it is easily sourced in large quantities. So until the concentrations measured are specified, the statement of 'detecting chlorine' means very little. Lets be honest , if they had anything concrete do you not think in the current climate they would hammer the point home like a stake through the heart of the Russian/Syrian position? No, they are fudging the issue because they have squat! The main issue is the dead Syrians DID NOT DIE OF CHLORINE POISONING.

So it seems to summarise that despite the might and murderous intent of the Syrians and Russians they just cannot seem to kill anyone with chemical or nerve agents. They seem to suck at it.

Don't you guys think that is just a little weird? huh.....maybe its just me. I expect if nations use chemical weapons that somebody might actually die!

No they all died of Chlorine poisoning.  Jesus told me. 
Now where I come from
We don't let society tell us how it's supposed to be
-Uptown, Prince 👉

Here comes the future and you can't run from it
If you've got a blacklist I want to be on it
If no one seems to understand
Start your own revolution and cut out the middleman

Offline goatboy1290

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #227 on: July 14, 2018, 05:03:58 AM »
OK - back to the main event. The link below is to Craig Murray's blog (ex UK ambassador to Uzbekistan during Afghan war). I believe, as intended, it thoroughly demolishes the UK version of events supporting Russian guilt in the Skripal case.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/07/the-holes-in-the-official-skripal-story/

I have been told on this site many times that....

Quote
these are not doubt-the-mainstream skeptics, these are go-with-the-experts-most-likely-explanation skeptics

This statement I hope does not imply that the mainstream by default IS always the most likely explanation. Surely that would be a laughable position since it pays no heed to the evidence and is simply a dogmatic faith based position. I keep referring to Craig because I believe he is more of an expert than any of the half bright journos who parot exatly what titbits the UK establishment offers them. The media have done an absolutely piss poor job of interrogating the logic of the case. There is not a single level that the UK case adds up on. The only card they have to play is the same old 'evil Russkies at it again' card......one that folks on this site seem to dutifully swallow as the 'most-likely-explanation'. How that can be the case beggars belief if you ask me. I would simply direct you specifically to read the section on who had opportunity to make Novichok AND who else had motive to murder the Skripals. This is an area not really dealt with on this thread but perhaps should have been where we put most effort.

Anyway, I commend the article to you. Please read it and think about each point. The inconsistencies and downright logical chasms come thick and fast. I would be pleased to discuss each and refresh this debate away from the door handle science side of things. We've done that to death.

For those that can't be bothered to read the whole thing I've picked one point that I think did not make sense from the outset and which, in the context of the recent World cup is put into even more sharp relief.

Quote
The Russians chose to use this assassination programme to target Sergei Skripal, a double agent who had been released from jail in Russia some eight years previously.

It seems remarkable that the chosen target of an attempt that would blow the existence of a secret weapon and end the cover of a decade long programme, should be nobody more prominent than a middle ranking double agent who the Russians let out of jail years ago. If they wanted him dead they could have killed him then. Furthermore the attack on him would undermine all future possible spy swaps. Putin therefore, on this reading, was willing to sacrifice both the secrecy of the novichok programme and the spy swap card just to attack Sergei Skripal. That seems highly improbable.

Offline PANTS!

  • One leg at a time.
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10704
  • What seals? I auditioned for this job.
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #228 on: July 14, 2018, 12:27:35 PM »
OK - back to the main event. The link below is to Craig Murray's blog (ex UK ambassador to Uzbekistan during Afghan war). I believe, as intended, it thoroughly demolishes the UK version of events supporting Russian guilt in the Skripal case.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/07/the-holes-in-the-official-skripal-story/

I have been told on this site many times that....

Quote
these are not doubt-the-mainstream skeptics, these are go-with-the-experts-most-likely-explanation skeptics

This statement I hope does not imply that the mainstream by default IS always the most likely explanation. Surely that would be a laughable position since it pays no heed to the evidence and is simply a dogmatic faith based position. I keep referring to Craig because I believe he is more of an expert than any of the half bright journos who parot exatly what titbits the UK establishment offers them. The media have done an absolutely piss poor job of interrogating the logic of the case. There is not a single level that the UK case adds up on. The only card they have to play is the same old 'evil Russkies at it again' card......one that folks on this site seem to dutifully swallow as the 'most-likely-explanation'. How that can be the case beggars belief if you ask me. I would simply direct you specifically to read the section on who had opportunity to make Novichok AND who else had motive to murder the Skripals. This is an area not really dealt with on this thread but perhaps should have been where we put most effort.

Anyway, I commend the article to you. Please read it and think about each point. The inconsistencies and downright logical chasms come thick and fast. I would be pleased to discuss each and refresh this debate away from the door handle science side of things. We've done that to death.

For those that can't be bothered to read the whole thing I've picked one point that I think did not make sense from the outset and which, in the context of the recent World cup is put into even more sharp relief.

Quote
The Russians chose to use this assassination programme to target Sergei Skripal, a double agent who had been released from jail in Russia some eight years previously.

It seems remarkable that the chosen target of an attempt that would blow the existence of a secret weapon and end the cover of a decade long programme, should be nobody more prominent than a middle ranking double agent who the Russians let out of jail years ago. If they wanted him dead they could have killed him then. Furthermore the attack on him would undermine all future possible spy swaps. Putin therefore, on this reading, was willing to sacrifice both the secrecy of the novichok programme and the spy swap card just to attack Sergei Skripal. That seems highly improbable.

Why won't you believe Jesus?  What kind of skeptic just ignore the evidence Jesus provides?
Now where I come from
We don't let society tell us how it's supposed to be
-Uptown, Prince 👉

Here comes the future and you can't run from it
If you've got a blacklist I want to be on it
If no one seems to understand
Start your own revolution and cut out the middleman

Offline goatboy1290

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #229 on: July 16, 2018, 04:59:12 AM »
Another first hand account relating to White Helmets and the Douma attack. This time from an award winning UK journalist. Still not as good as listening to the Syrians who were actually affected but it'll have to do. This was the only interview offering dissent against an onslought  of reports repeating the White Helmets version of events by journalists who were thousands of miles form the story when it happened.

Quote
Robert Fisk is one of the very few excellent investigative journalists still employed in the UK. He is twice winner of the British Press Awards‘ Journalist of the Year prize, and seven time winner of the British Press Awards’ Foreign Correspondent of the Year. He is extremely smart and knows the Middle East very well. He has just made his way – not accompanied by Russian or Syrian government officials – to Douma and this is what he reports.

If you care to search for Robert Fisk on twitter, the attacks on his reputation and integrity at this very moment from achieve nothing neo-con trolls and media lackeys are astonishing. He is in Douma – they are at their desks.

Craig Murray - https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/04/robert-fisk-reports-head-of-douma-clinic-denies-chemical-weapons-attack/


https://podcasts.spiritradio.ie/?powerpress_embed=8768-podcast&powerpress_player=mediaelement-audio

You might count this as an anomaly and me as an anomaly hunter if it weren't for the fact that the OPCW followed up on the reports by interviewing nearly everyone who appeared in the white helmets video. Every single person reported no symptoms consistent with Chlorine or nerve agent poisoning. This anomaly appears to have been verified as a plain and simple false flag.

So what about the chlorine samples? I would guess that the modus operandi is thus:

1. White helmets are fed intel that Syrian Helicopters are in the air and heading to sortie a particular district.
2. White helmets head to the area with makeshift Chlorine 'bombs'.
3. White helmets 'spot' helicopters in the area and report munitions being dropped.
4. White helmets simultaneously launch Chlorine gas cannisters over short range onto a nearby building.
5. White helmets start warning citizens to evacuate and simultaneously head to the hospital.
6. White helmets begin filming as they shout 'gas, gas, gas' while pouring water on people.
7. White helmets then make themselves unavailable for interview so that individual stories and backgrounds cannot be checked (countless White Helmets have been pictured with Jihadists posing with weapons and with dead Syrian civilians)
8. Mainstream media goes into a frenzy, parliament laps it up and orders air strikes before any investigation of any sort is carried out. Nobody bats an eyelid since crimes involving chemical weapons demand action not conversation. Job done.

If this version of what might have happened could be proven then it would call into question how many other attacks had been staged by intelligence operatives working under the guise of White Helmets.

It would be interesting to see a study of the likely effect of a Chlorine bomb on civilians in a built up area mostly hiding in underground tunnels. I used to study dispersion profiles for smoke as part of the environmental portion of my undergraduate degree. What is clear is that gases disperse quickly in moving airflows and would only affect people unlucky enough to be caught above ground. In the case of Chlorine the likely effect would be discomfort and irritation but not death. Enough to create a panic and great footage but not death.

Let us also remember that Assad is fighting Jihadi factions so we are being led to believe he is willing to indiscriminately kill a few civilians in a barbaric manner but for what end? Chemical weapons on the battlefield are designed to kill huge numbers quickly but in urban situations they are all but useless. Especially given the network of tunnels that have been built to allow free movement of fighters.

No, the use of chemical weapons as a serious tool of war would be derided and quashed by any serious discussion among generals. On a intelligence/political level it would be totally contrary to the wider aims of Assad and his Russian sponsors who are only actually making progress through bombing and other conventional means. The population of such places as Douma already live with terror at the hands of the fundamentalist jihadi fighters. Assad, must rule these people and the rest of civil society after the war is won and I cannot imagine that being seen as a war criminal without morals is going to help him rule. There is a difference between being seen as strong and being seen as totally insane with a murderous blood lust that simply cant be sated. Our insistence that this is what he is says more about our perverted media tactics than it does about reality. Assad no doubt does much that we find abhorrent to maintain his position but then he is trying to stem the tide of IS across his once secular and largely peaceful country. He does not want to end up lige Saddam and Ghadaffi did before him.


Online SkeptiQueer

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7178
  • DEEZ NUTZ
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #230 on: July 16, 2018, 05:42:00 AM »
Another first hand account relating to White Helmets and the Douma attack. This time from an award winning UK journalist. Still not as good as listening to the Syrians who were actually affected but it'll have to do. This was the only interview offering dissent against an onslought  of reports repeating the White Helmets version of events by journalists who were thousands of miles form the story when it happened.

Quote
Robert Fisk is one of the very few excellent investigative journalists still employed in the UK. He is twice winner of the British Press Awards‘ Journalist of the Year prize, and seven time winner of the British Press Awards’ Foreign Correspondent of the Year. He is extremely smart and knows the Middle East very well. He has just made his way – not accompanied by Russian or Syrian government officials – to Douma and this is what he reports.

If you care to search for Robert Fisk on twitter, the attacks on his reputation and integrity at this very moment from achieve nothing neo-con trolls and media lackeys are astonishing. He is in Douma – they are at their desks.

Craig Murray - https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/04/robert-fisk-reports-head-of-douma-clinic-denies-chemical-weapons-attack/


https://podcasts.spiritradio.ie/?powerpress_embed=8768-podcast&powerpress_player=mediaelement-audio

You might count this as an anomaly and me as an anomaly hunter if it weren't for the fact that the OPCW followed up on the reports by interviewing nearly everyone who appeared in the white helmets video. Every single person reported no symptoms consistent with Chlorine or nerve agent poisoning. This anomaly appears to have been verified as a plain and simple false flag.

So what about the chlorine samples? I would guess that the modus operandi is thus:

1. White helmets are fed intel that Syrian Helicopters are in the air and heading to sortie a particular district.
2. White helmets head to the area with makeshift Chlorine 'bombs'.
3. White helmets 'spot' helicopters in the area and report munitions being dropped.
4. White helmets simultaneously launch Chlorine gas cannisters over short range onto a nearby building.
5. White helmets start warning citizens to evacuate and simultaneously head to the hospital.
6. White helmets begin filming as they shout 'gas, gas, gas' while pouring water on people.
7. White helmets then make themselves unavailable for interview so that individual stories and backgrounds cannot be checked (countless White Helmets have been pictured with Jihadists posing with weapons and with dead Syrian civilians)
8. Mainstream media goes into a frenzy, parliament laps it up and orders air strikes before any investigation of any sort is carried out. Nobody bats an eyelid since crimes involving chemical weapons demand action not conversation. Job done.

If this version of what might have happened could be proven then it would call into question how many other attacks had been staged by intelligence operatives working under the guise of White Helmets.

It would be interesting to see a study of the likely effect of a Chlorine bomb on civilians in a built up area mostly hiding in underground tunnels. I used to study dispersion profiles for smoke as part of the environmental portion of my undergraduate degree. What is clear is that gases disperse quickly in moving airflows and would only affect people unlucky enough to be caught above ground. In the case of Chlorine the likely effect would be discomfort and irritation but not death. Enough to create a panic and great footage but not death.

Let us also remember that Assad is fighting Jihadi factions so we are being led to believe he is willing to indiscriminately kill a few civilians in a barbaric manner but for what end? Chemical weapons on the battlefield are designed to kill huge numbers quickly but in urban situations they are all but useless. Especially given the network of tunnels that have been built to allow free movement of fighters.

No, the use of chemical weapons as a serious tool of war would be derided and quashed by any serious discussion among generals. On a intelligence/political level it would be totally contrary to the wider aims of Assad and his Russian sponsors who are only actually making progress through bombing and other conventional means. The population of such places as Douma already live with terror at the hands of the fundamentalist jihadi fighters. Assad, must rule these people and the rest of civil society after the war is won and I cannot imagine that being seen as a war criminal without morals is going to help him rule. There is a difference between being seen as strong and being seen as totally insane with a murderous blood lust that simply cant be sated. Our insistence that this is what he is says more about our perverted media tactics than it does about reality. Assad no doubt does much that we find abhorrent to maintain his position but then he is trying to stem the tide of IS across his once secular and largely peaceful country. He does not want to end up lige Saddam and Ghadaffi did before him.

No, that is not a firsthand account from Robert Fisk, it's from a doctor he interviewed. In fact if you read the Independent article by Fisk past the first paragraph, it continues:

Quote
As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself


which makes it a secondhand account.  
It continues:

Quote
By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks.

France, meanwhile, has said it has “proof” chemical weapons were used, and US media have quoted sources saying urine and blood tests showed this too. The WHO has said its partners on the ground treated 500 patients “exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”.

At the same time, inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are currently blocked from coming here to the site of the alleged gas attack themselves, ostensibly because they lacked the correct UN permits.

So in fact, the eyewitness accounts and OPCW investigators are still working (the latter being prevented from investigation) while other agencies claim to have evidence. Fisk is reporting the opposite of what you claim. Is he still a valuable source?

Yes, this is an anomaly, you are an anomaly hunter, and you're continuing to intentionally misinterpret statements in a way favorable to your conspiracy, now including misstating the origin of an account in order to grant it undue credibility. 

If Assad didn't want to be seen as a war criminal, he shouldn't have barrel-bombed apartment buildings. That ship sailed, and we're under no obligation to stretch the truth and deny warcrimes just because he region is unstable.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 06:11:22 AM by SkeptiQueer »
HIISSSSSSSS

Offline goatboy1290

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #231 on: July 16, 2018, 08:29:19 AM »
Quote
  So in fact, the eyewitness accounts and OPCW investigators are still working (the latter being prevented from investigation) 

This is incorrect, the OPCW carried out their work unimpeded citing 'a full chain of custody' albeit after an initial delay while the security situation was established (dead OPCW operatives really would be a diplomatic nightmare). They are now writing the final report. Where on earth did you get this?

Quote
  Fisk is reporting the opposite of what you claim. Is he still a valuable source?
 

The podcast link was perfectly in line with Robert Fisks written news report, which concluded there was no gas poisoning and the White Helmets were the ones who tried to create panic by shouting 'gas'.

Did you even listen to it?

Yes Robert fisk remains a trusted source og great merit. Not because of his awards or his Western birthplace, but because HE WAS THERE!!

You would think a so called 'skeptic' would value first hand, eye witness testimony from an award winning journalist and interrogate its merits. But no, yet again, no evidence the source was even listened to, just a load of nonsensical, diversionary blowback.

Pseudoskeptic.

Incidentally, the definition of an anomaly is something that cannot be explained by current theories or evidence, not something that contradicts your belief system. The facts do not yet prove which side originated the chlorine and certainly do not support that anyone died from it in this particular case. Reasonable doubt exists, enough to dig deeper into the White Helmets and the other Chemical attacks where people certainly did die. Perhaps Assad did initially use chemical weapons to see how effective it might be since conventional warfare was bound to cause many civilian casualties. I do not think any military commander would advise their use now.

Online SkeptiQueer

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7178
  • DEEZ NUTZ
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #232 on: July 16, 2018, 08:53:14 AM »
Quote
  So in fact, the eyewitness accounts and OPCW investigators are still working (the latter being prevented from investigation) 

This is incorrect, the OPCW carried out their work unimpeded citing 'a full chain of custody' albeit after an initial delay while the security situation was established (dead OPCW operatives really would be a diplomatic nightmare). They are now writing the final report. Where on earth did you get this?

Quote
  Fisk is reporting the opposite of what you claim. Is he still a valuable source?
 

The podcast link was perfectly in line with Robert Fisks written news report, which concluded there was no gas poisoning and the White Helmets were the ones who tried to create panic by shouting 'gas'.

Did you even listen to it?

Yes Robert fisk remains a trusted source og great merit. Not because of his awards or his Western birthplace, but because HE WAS THERE!!

You would think a so called 'skeptic' would value first hand, eye witness testimony from an award winning journalist and interrogate its merits. But no, yet again, no evidence the source was even listened to, just a load of nonsensical, diversionary blowback.

Pseudoskeptic.

Incidentally, the definition of an anomaly is something that cannot be explained by current theories or evidence, not something that contradicts your belief system. The facts do not yet prove which side originated the chlorine and certainly do not support that anyone died from it in this particular case. Reasonable doubt exists, enough to dig deeper into the White Helmets and the other Chemical attacks where people certainly did die. Perhaps Assad did initially use chemical weapons to see how effective it might be since conventional warfare was bound to cause many civilian casualties. I do not think any military commander would advise their use now.
I quoted directly from Fisk's article, rather than wasting time going to a podcast that talked about it. Everything in quotes in my post is directly from his article.

Fisk did not conclude it was the White Helmets, the non-eyewitness report he quoted said that.

Maybe instead of citing a podcast that talks about an article, you should go straight to the article? https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

To reiterate, not a firsthand account, not at all in pine with what you're claiming it says.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 08:56:50 AM by SkeptiQueer »
HIISSSSSSSS

Offline goatboy1290

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #233 on: July 16, 2018, 11:35:57 AM »
Quote
To reiterate, not a firsthand account, not at all in line with what you're claiming it says.

It was some time ago I read the article (in full) and Robert Fisk's podcast did not name the doctor but referred to 'a doctor' who reported nobody had chlorine symptoms. Given all those present were reporting the same I don't think we need worry that this was a second hand account. It is also largely 'in line with what I am saying. Namely, that there was no evidence of a chlorine attack and the video instead showed people suffering from hypoxia.

To be clear I am saying that the gist of the Robert Fisk article is clear, there was no chemical attack (at least in the case of the civilians shown in the White Helmets video). Do you dispute that is the main thrust of the article? If not, why are we splitting hairs?

You seem to be attacking the way I am presenting the argument rather than dealing with the substance of it. I get this all the time on the Flat Earth Society website. they prefer to divert and talk about the poster or the method or argument or some other daft tangent. Just not the main conclusions or the info supporting it.

But just to clarify the extent of the evidence. We have:

1. A doctor who seems to be reporting to a respected journalist that his colleagues reported no signs of Chlorine poisoning. Second hand, granted, but then we also have.....

2. The actual doctors present on the night (his colleagues) invited by the OPCW to the Hague to give evidence repeating the same on video (i.e. no poisoning).

3. Civilians pictured in the video apparently suffering from Chlorine poisoning reporting the same (i.e. no poisoning) at the same OPCW hearing.

4. The preliminary OPCW report indicates no blood samples of deceased civilians that contained Chlorine.

5. Two sites (not clarified) where Chlorine samples were found (no concentrations indicated or estimated) and only the word of undisclosed eye witnesses (who cannot therefor be questioned) that they were delivered by homemade munitions dropped from helicopters. The assumption being only government forces could deliver in this manner.

6. Not that I raised it before but it is worth pointing out that the Fisk article also makes anecdotal reference to civilians he spoke to that doubt the voracity of the claims about there being any chemical attacks in their area.

Quote
There are the many people I talked to amid the ruins of the town who said they had “never believed in” gas stories – which were usually put about, they claimed, by the armed Islamist groups

The article is now months old. We also know that the Douma site was subsequently investigated in full and that contrary to this statement (below)....

Quote
WHO has said its partners on the ground treated 500 patients “exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals

....no blood samples exist with chlorine in them, at least not from the dead civilians, who are afterall the ones you might expect would have chlorine in their blood!

Offline PANTS!

  • One leg at a time.
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10704
  • What seals? I auditioned for this job.
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #234 on: July 16, 2018, 11:49:21 AM »

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=683&tid=36

Quote
1.8 Is there a medical test to determine whether I have been exposed to chlorine?
There are no medical tests available for chlorine   
There are no medical tests to determine whether you have been exposed specifically to chlorine.

Chlorine is transformed in the body into chloride ions, which are normal components of the body. An enormous amount of chlorine has to be inhaled or ingested in order to detect a significant increase in chloride ions in the blood. This has occurred in a few cases of ingestion of large amounts of hypochlorite solution and one of them was a fatal case.


Jesus now hates you, because your lying makes him sad.
Now where I come from
We don't let society tell us how it's supposed to be
-Uptown, Prince 👉

Here comes the future and you can't run from it
If you've got a blacklist I want to be on it
If no one seems to understand
Start your own revolution and cut out the middleman

Offline goatboy1290

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #235 on: July 16, 2018, 02:54:15 PM »
oops...two of same post. Don't know how to delete it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 03:12:48 PM by goatboy1290 »

Offline goatboy1290

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #236 on: July 16, 2018, 03:03:48 PM »
Quote
Jesus now hates you, because your lying makes him sad.

My word, if weren't for the fact I am a devout atheist I would point out that the fictional character you refer to was supposed to love everybody, including me I suppose and would never hate or harm anyone (unlike his Dad who could murder millions at the drop of a hat when he felt the wrath rising).

No, my crime here seem to be ignorance of the post-mortem process for determining Chlorine poisoning. I referenced blood samples because the OPCW indicated they were doing them for nerve agents so it seemed reasonable to assume they were doing them for Chlorine also. Anyway, in the current frenzy to apportion blame to Assad and Syria one must assume that if they didn't mention any signs of Chlorine poisoning post mortem (and they did not) that means there were none. It is, afterall, very easy to determine if someone has died from inhaling an irritating gas and it seems no relevant signs were detected. You don't need blood samples to draw a general conclusion which gets us back to the same place.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the real take away from all of this is that Chlorine poisoning does not seem to have been a major factor in the bombardment that definitely did take place. Perhaps some canisters were exploded somewhere but they had little to no effect on anyone in Douma.

The effect on the worlds media however has been EXPLOSIVE. Consider that for a moment. Its not as if the Russians and Syria couldn't figure out what would happen next is it?? Hardly! Not content with fighting IS/Al Quaeda and countless other factions on their own doorstep, always fearful of nuclear bully Israel next door they decided they want to open up a new aerial front and write a blank cheque for the Western coalition to bomb whatever facilities they had on their Cruz missile Xmas list. Why not, bring it on!

Now the fighting is not over. Some commentators have already made predictions that we will see more staged chemical attacks when the fighting moves to the last remaining cities in Syria. Given that the last ones held zero tactical advantage and led to coalition airstrikes, even the most ardent anti Assad person would have to see that it makes no sense to continue with a policy that has all down sides and no up side. If chemical attacks continue the media onslaught will need to be as one sided and blinkered as it was this time. Perhaps we will not even see the final OPCW report before this takes place. It was supposed to take a few weeks. That was 3 months ago.

Offline PANTS!

  • One leg at a time.
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10704
  • What seals? I auditioned for this job.
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #237 on: July 16, 2018, 03:11:15 PM »
Quote
Jesus now hates you, because your lying makes him sad.

My word, if weren't for the fact I am a devout atheist I would point out that the fictional character you refer to was supposed to love everybody, including me I suppose and would never hate or harm anyone (unlike his Dad who could murder millions at the drop of a hat when he felt the wrath rising).

No, my crime here seem to be ignorance of the post-mortem process for determining Chlorine poisoning. I referenced blood samples because the OPCW indicated they were doing them for nerve agents so it seemed reasonable to assume they were doing them for Chlorine also. Anyway, in the current frenzy to apportion blame to Assad and Syria one must assume that if they didn't mention any signs of Chlorine poisoning post mortem (and they did not) that means there were none. It is, afterall, very easy to determine if someone has died from inhaling an irritating gas and it seems no relevant signs were detected. You don't need blood samples to draw a general conclusion which gets us back to the same place.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the real take away from all of this is that Chlorine poisoning does not seem to have been a major factor in the bombardment that definitely did take place. Perhaps some canisters were exploded somewhere but they had little to no effect on anyone in Douma.

The effect on the worlds media however has been EXPLOSIVE. Consider that for a moment. Its not as if the Russians and Syria couldn't figure out what would happen next is it?? Hardly! Not content with fighting IS/Al Quaeda and countless other factions on their own doorstep, always fearful of nuclear bully Israel next door they decided they want to open up a new aerial front and write a blank cheque for the Western coalition to bomb whatever facilities they had on their Cruz missile Xmas list. Why not, bring it on!

Now the fighting is not over. Some commentators have already made predictions that we will see more staged chemical attacks when the fighting moves to the last remaining cities in Syria. Given that the last ones held zero tactical advantage and led to coalition airstrikes, even the most ardent anti Assad person would have to see that it makes no sense to continue with a policy that has all down sides and no up side. If chemical attacks continue the media onslaught will need to be as one sided and blinkered as it was this time. Perhaps we will not even see the final OPCW report before this takes place. It was supposed to take a few weeks. That was 3 months ago.

No, your crime is you plow ahead when you don't know diddly shit. 

And Jesus is real.  RT said so.
Now where I come from
We don't let society tell us how it's supposed to be
-Uptown, Prince 👉

Here comes the future and you can't run from it
If you've got a blacklist I want to be on it
If no one seems to understand
Start your own revolution and cut out the middleman

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3746
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #238 on: July 16, 2018, 03:23:00 PM »
The effect on the worlds media however has been EXPLOSIVE. Consider that for a moment. Its not as if the Russians and Syria couldn't figure out what would happen next is it?? Hardly! Not content with fighting IS/Al Quaeda and countless other factions on their own doorstep, always fearful of nuclear bully Israel next door they decided they want to open up a new aerial front and write a blank cheque for the Western coalition to bomb whatever facilities they had on their Cruz missile Xmas list. Why not, bring it on!

Israel has not really been deeply involved in the struggle over Syria. Israel has attacked Iranian positions in Syria as well as deliveries from Syria to Hezbollah (which is an Iranian proxy). Israel doesn't really care who rules in Syria, only that Syria is not used as a staging ground for attacks against it, or that Iran does not move its positions forward in the country.
"Large skepticism leads to large understanding. Small skepticism leads to small understanding. No skepticism leads to no understanding." - Xi Zhi

Offline goatboy1290

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Novichok nerve agent attack - UK
« Reply #239 on: July 18, 2018, 01:20:01 PM »
Quote
No, your crime is you plow ahead when you don't know diddly shit. 

Quote
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. Mark Twain

 

personate-rain