Author Topic: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?  (Read 12713 times)

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Offline haudace

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #195 on: December 26, 2018, 08:19:54 PM »
wow, how did this go from possible sexually inappropriate touching/assult to "they made me feel bad by calling me an old movie reference." ?

"Damn dirty ape" is a metaphor for being human, we are all damn dirty apes. The film is filled with metaphors like that. I can understand how not knowing could make it upsetting but now you know. (BTW I named my dog Dr Zira after one of the lead characters)

Did anyone ever get a response on the sexually inappropriate behavior/assault?

I watched planet of the apes and I still didn't get the reference. Albeit I am probably not as fascinated with the franchise as the rest of you. I only saw most of the movies once and forgot about them.

I found the levels a little odd, but not really offensive. But I can empathize with whoever may react differently and be hurt by them. At the end of the day they are just words. We live in a time where people are outraged by everything. I can't stand by that.

Come on, now, don't conflate someone not getting a joke with claims for "outrage culture." I'm sure it's not your intent, but that sounds like the kind of forced anti-SJW/buncha-snowflakes rhetoric that's designed to undermine the voices of people experiencing actual oppression. Let's not make this into the comment section for angry uncles who watch Fox News, especially when this is a sidebar discussion of Planet of The Apes quotes.

Not at all. Sometimes, some of the outrage comes across manufactured or unwarranted, like the boy that cried wolf too many times. I am genuinely concerned that exaggerated and continuous outrage over every little thing will actually help undermine the voices of people experiencing actual oppression. Being called a movie reference 'damn dirty ape', which is particular to geek culture, is not the same as being called a racial slur or being emotionally abused.

I hate to re-use your words, but that's genuinely how I feel.

Offline John Albert

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #196 on: January 05, 2019, 03:19:40 PM »
I am genuinely concerned that exaggerated and continuous outrage over every little thing will actually help undermine the voices of people experiencing actual oppression.

I worry about this same thing. When it comes to politics, we've become a one-note cantor.

Just because the "anti-SJW" crowd throw that accusation around, that doesn't mean it's not a legitimate point. But as usual, the the alt-right are total hypocrites about it. They accuse the "libs" of being too easily triggered, and in the next breath they'll make some vicious joke about rape or the Holocaust and expect everybody to snicker along at the victims' expense.

Of course the left does not have a monopoly on outrage culture, either. The difference is that conservatives get outraged over subjects like egalitarianism and human rights.

But it should be obvious that this divisiveness is a real problem. While everybody's seething with anticipation for the next opportunity to get pissed off, Donald Trump is already prepared with a fresh tweet to stoke the flames.


Offline haudace

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #197 on: January 10, 2019, 05:51:39 PM »
I am genuinely concerned that exaggerated and continuous outrage over every little thing will actually help undermine the voices of people experiencing actual oppression.

I worry about this same thing. When it comes to politics, we've become a one-note cantor.

Just because the "anti-SJW" crowd throw that accusation around, that doesn't mean it's not a legitimate point. But as usual, the the alt-right are total hypocrites about it. They accuse the "libs" of being too easily triggered, and in the next breath they'll make some vicious joke about rape or the Holocaust and expect everybody to snicker along at the victims' expense.

Of course the left does not have a monopoly on outrage culture, either. The difference is that conservatives get outraged over subjects like egalitarianism and human rights.

But it should be obvious that this divisiveness is a real problem. While everybody's seething with anticipation for the next opportunity to get pissed off, Donald Trump is already prepared with a fresh tweet to stoke the flames.

I hear ya, both sides seem to suffer these bursts of unfounded outrage.

Anyways the latest one is pretty funny. Hehe





Someone doesn't like free speech.

Offline Steven Novella

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #198 on: January 12, 2019, 11:53:36 PM »
All - I am sorry for the hurt feelings being expressed on this thread. We care deeply about this community (our longest running legacy) and all our listeners and appreciate the feedback. Some of the topics raised are complex and I can get to them separately, but first I need to respond to the accusations against Evan.

I have directly confronted Evan with them. He completely denies them, or any behavior that he can remember that could have crossed any lines. However, I also have no reason to doubt the accuser's sincerity. We of course take these issues extremely seriously. Evan, and all the rogues, understand that any such behavior is completely unacceptable.

I have already apologized to the accuser, and I apologize again (I am respecting their anonymity as they have apparently not revealed themselves). Given that I have no ability to resolve the difference in accounts, we will have to all think about this more deeply and discuss what other response is appropriate here, would best serve fairness all around and the seriousness of the accusations.
Steven Novella
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Offline Bill K

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #199 on: January 13, 2019, 12:16:32 AM »
So this woman misinterpreted Evan groping her on three separate occasions, I guess.
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Offline fuzzyMarmot

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #200 on: January 13, 2019, 12:43:28 AM »
Thank you for addressing this issue, Dr. Novella. It is extremely reassuring to know that you and the rogues are taking this so seriously. I really appreciate you communicating this on the SGU forum.

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #201 on: January 13, 2019, 03:45:30 AM »
All - I am sorry for the hurt feelings being expressed on this thread. We care deeply about this community (our longest running legacy) and all our listeners and appreciate the feedback. Some of the topics raised are complex and I can get to them separately, but first I need to respond to the accusations against Evan.

I have directly confronted Evan with them. He completely denies them, or any behavior that he can remember that could have crossed any lines. However, I also have no reason to doubt the accuser's sincerity. We of course take these issues extremely seriously. Evan, and all the rogues, understand that any such behavior is completely unacceptable.

I have already apologized to the accuser, and I apologize again (I am respecting their anonymity as they have apparently not revealed themselves). Given that I have no ability to resolve the difference in accounts, we will have to all think about this more deeply and discuss what other response is appropriate here, would best serve fairness all around and the seriousness of the accusations.

Hi Steve, first I wanted to thank you sincerely for coming here to talk about all this.  As I'm sure you've gathered from this thread, there are a lot of things I'm anxious to hear your perspective and opinions on but most important of all is that thing I honestly (though naively, I admit) didn't intend to discuss here and respectfully, I'd like to clear it up before addressing any of those other items.  I guess before anything else, could you tell us what you apologized to her for?  Was it just a general apology for what she's been through or was it for not acting on it before now as she's said you've known for a while, or something else?

Offline Bill K

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #202 on: January 13, 2019, 05:30:38 AM »
All - I am sorry for the hurt feelings being expressed on this thread. We care deeply about this community (our longest running legacy) and all our listeners and appreciate the feedback. Some of the topics raised are complex and I can get to them separately, but first I need to respond to the accusations against Evan.

I have directly confronted Evan with them. He completely denies them, or any behavior that he can remember that could have crossed any lines. However, I also have no reason to doubt the accuser's sincerity. We of course take these issues extremely seriously. Evan, and all the rogues, understand that any such behavior is completely unacceptable.

I have already apologized to the accuser, and I apologize again (I am respecting their anonymity as they have apparently not revealed themselves). Given that I have no ability to resolve the difference in accounts, we will have to all think about this more deeply and discuss what other response is appropriate here, would best serve fairness all around and the seriousness of the accusations.

 In any other scenario similar to this one, posters would not be literally thanking the show host for finally acknowledging that his co-host "probably" didn't do what [anonymous] says he did.

 The mentality on these forums is pretty clear in other cases involving such misconduct. I've made similar posts to Steve's and they were always shot down, because they should have been. Is it that Evan gets a pass because he "completely denies" what he's accused of? That's like Trump logic right there. And to be clear, you believe that Evan never did anything he has been alleged to have done regarding groping a fan, right? On three different occasions as well, I think she said.

 And what do you mean you don't doubt the accuser's sincerity? You don't doubt she's genuine, then why don't you believe her? And if you don't believe her, can you provide an explanation as to why she's making these accusations? All in her head? What?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 05:39:31 AM by Bill K »
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Offline Steven Novella

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #203 on: January 13, 2019, 07:33:54 AM »
These are obviously very complex situations. I apologized to the accuser for what she has been through, told her such behavior is unacceptable, and said I would address it with Evan, which I have done. I believe she is sincere, but that does not mean there isn't room for interpretation of what happened. Evan completely denies anything, and I believe he is sincere also (knowing him as long as I have). In these situations where there is no material way to resolve what actually happened, pattern of behavior is what is important. The accuser said she posted this to see if anyone else would come forward, and no one has. Obviously if there were multiple accusers, that would be a completely different situation.

So  - no one gets a pass. We are handling this like any University, for example, would - preponderance of evidence, pattern of behavior, plausibility of the denial, room for interpretation, etc. Accusation does not equal guilt, but any accusation is taken seriously, never dismissed out of hand, and dealt with. Given the specifics of this situation I thought I dealt with it sufficiently. If the accuser is not satisfied then we will discuss it again, and think carefully about what else we can do, again trying to be fair to everyone. I am also happy to follow up with the accuser to see why they were disappointed and what remedy they think is appropriate.
Steven Novella
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Offline Bill K

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #204 on: January 13, 2019, 07:37:11 AM »
These are obviously very complex situations. I apologized to the accuser for what she has been through, told her such behavior is unacceptable, and said I would address it with Evan, which I have done. I believe she is sincere, but that does not mean there isn't room for interpretation of what happened. Evan completely denies anything, and I believe he is sincere also (knowing him as long as I have). In these situations where there is no material way to resolve what actually happened, pattern of behavior is what is important. The accuser said she posted this to see if anyone else would come forward, and no one has. Obviously if there were multiple accusers, that would be a completely different situation.

So  - no one gets a pass. We are handling this like any University, for example, would - preponderance of evidence, pattern of behavior, plausibility of the denial, room for interpretation, etc. Accusation does not equal guilt, but any accusation is taken seriously, never dismissed out of hand, and dealt with. Given the specifics of this situation I thought I dealt with it sufficiently. If the accuser is not satisfied then we will discuss it again, and think carefully about what else we can do, again trying to be fair to everyone. I am also happy to follow up with the accuser to see why they were disappointed and what remedy they think is appropriate.

I know you're right. I sincerely apologize for being so assuming and aggressive. This topic just really gets under my skin, clouding my thinking alas. And as someone else said, I do appreciate your responding. Thank you.
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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #205 on: January 13, 2019, 10:05:16 AM »
These are obviously very complex situations. I apologized to the accuser for what she has been through, told her such behavior is unacceptable, and said I would address it with Evan, which I have done. I believe she is sincere, but that does not mean there isn't room for interpretation of what happened. Evan completely denies anything, and I believe he is sincere also (knowing him as long as I have). In these situations where there is no material way to resolve what actually happened, pattern of behavior is what is important. The accuser said she posted this to see if anyone else would come forward, and no one has. Obviously if there were multiple accusers, that would be a completely different situation.

So  - no one gets a pass. We are handling this like any University, for example, would - preponderance of evidence, pattern of behavior, plausibility of the denial, room for interpretation, etc. Accusation does not equal guilt, but any accusation is taken seriously, never dismissed out of hand, and dealt with. Given the specifics of this situation I thought I dealt with it sufficiently. If the accuser is not satisfied then we will discuss it again, and think carefully about what else we can do, again trying to be fair to everyone. I am also happy to follow up with the accuser to see why they were disappointed and what remedy they think is appropriate.

The impression I got was that she had come to you a while ago with these complaints and that after she made them, you had not followed up with her. She never directly said that from what I recall and as I was not in a position to gather additional facts I never pressured her for more details than she was comfortable giving of her own accord; was that inference correct? Did you fail to follow up with her until you saw this thread?

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #206 on: January 13, 2019, 12:49:39 PM »
I can't say I have been following this very closely, but I really appreciate that Steve takes the time from his busy schedule to respond to this thread. :)

Hey Steve if you are reading this, just wanted to say that reading your blogs, the posts coming online around 2 pm my local time, are among of the highlights of my weekdays, and have been for years. Thank you for that, and please keep up the good work. :)

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #207 on: January 13, 2019, 01:35:30 PM »
All - I am sorry for the hurt feelings being expressed on this thread. We care deeply about this community (our longest running legacy) and all our listeners and appreciate the feedback. Some of the topics raised are complex and I can get to them separately, but first I need to respond to the accusations against Evan.

I have directly confronted Evan with them. He completely denies them, or any behavior that he can remember that could have crossed any lines. However, I also have no reason to doubt the accuser's sincerity. We of course take these issues extremely seriously. Evan, and all the rogues, understand that any such behavior is completely unacceptable.

I have already apologized to the accuser, and I apologize again (I am respecting their anonymity as they have apparently not revealed themselves). Given that I have no ability to resolve the difference in accounts, we will have to all think about this more deeply and discuss what other response is appropriate here, would best serve fairness all around and the seriousness of the accusations.

 In any other scenario similar to this one, posters would not be literally thanking the show host for finally acknowledging that his co-host "probably" didn't do what [anonymous] says he did.

I can only speak for myself, but while I think Steve absolutely has a responsibility to address this complaint somewhere he's under no obligation to answer people on this forum specifically.  He owes me as an individual nothing, so to have the chance to personally engage with him when he has so much other stuff going on in his life is indeed something I'm thankful for.  I would feel the same way if someone I can't stand and don't respect at all decided to enter a forum where I can personally and directly ask him questions he will answer.  Hell, if Trump came to the President Trump thread, I'd thank him for it.

Offline Bill K

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #208 on: January 13, 2019, 01:50:00 PM »
It isn't really just a simple complaint.

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Re: What would it take for you to stop listening to and/or supporting the SGU?
« Reply #209 on: January 13, 2019, 02:10:14 PM »
It isn't really just a simple complaint.

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Did I say it was?