Author Topic: Episode #664  (Read 3843 times)

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2018, 08:17:58 PM »
So what's your point?


Is that not clear? That you employ a double standard. That it's OK for you to believe something that contradicts mainstream medical opinion aligning with a minority opinion but it's not OK for someone else.

And, no, It's not me who gets upset in these conversations.

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You come back with a suggestion that I should always agree with Dr. Novella

The opposite of what I said. You specifically criticized me very harshly because I differed with Novella and the Mayo Clinic, etc. Fine, but now you do exactly the same thing. I'm pointing out your double standard (at best) or hypocrisy (at worst).

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In my opinion, your dietary views are extreme and contrary to the preponderance of the evidence. You disagree.

That's perfectly fine, I'm happy to disagree. But in that disagreement you repeatedly throw Novella and the Mayo clinic at me, claiming that having a minority opinion is the equivalent of claiming I know more than they and am a better judge of the evidence, etc.

And now you're doing exactly the same thing. By your logic you're claiming that you're smarter and more informed and better to judge the evidence than Novella, et al. (Or that Crislip is).

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We can have different views. I'm not sure what that has to do with my opinion on the placebo effect, which Mark Crislip says does not exist, and I find his reasoning convincing, just as I find Dr. Novella's reasoning convincing on many issues.

It's how science works.

There is a mainstream view about the placebo effect. Crislip holds a minority opinion. There's nothing wrong with that.

You are of the opinion that Crislip is right  and Novella et al are wrong. Fine, perfectly reasonable, nothing wrong with that.

Maybe as more evidence and informed arguments are developed one side or the other will prevail.

There is also a mainstream theory on diet, nutrition and fat storage. There are a good number of professionals in medicine, science, statistics, and research who hold a minority opinion. There is nothing wrong with that.

I am of the opinion that the carbs/glucose/insulin theory of diet and nutrition is closer to the truth than the prevailing mainstream theory. Nothing wrong with that.

Maybe as more evidence and informed arguments are developed, one side or the other will prevail.

Again, that's how science works.

Yet you repeatedly criticize me, saying I'm claiming to know more than Novella et al because I hold and argue in favor of a different position.

Now you are in the same boat, but it's ok because? Maybe because you like your opinion about Placebos and you don't like my opinions about diet and nutrition?

If one's OK the other's OK.

They are both OK.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2018, 08:22:16 PM »

I disagree with you whenever you claim that there’s a single diet that’s better than every other possible diet for weight loss and maintenance of a healthy body weight.

A claim I never make.
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Whenever you comment, regardless of the topic, you’re also displaying your opinion;  ‘I’m not a doctor, I’m just a guy who went on a LCHF ketogenic diet and lost weight and improved his health, then did a ton of research.’

It's called a forum signature. Lot's of people use them.
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My opinion is that you’re doing useless research, favouring quantity over quality.  I suspect your ‘research’ comes from the LCHF ketogenic diet partisans.  I’ve looked at their blogs.  I’m not impressed by its quality.

Pubmed is your friend. You probably have seen more of their blogs than I have.


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You’ve never been specific regarding your success with your LCHF ketogenic diet - not that I doubt that you were successful - if you’re motivated enough you will lose weight on any acceptable diet (and an acceptable diet is one that provides sufficient but not excessive calories, and adequate essential amino acids and fatty acids, minerals, and vitamins).  And attaining a healthy body weight is almost the be all and end all of health.

I've been on these forums for years now, and yes I have been very specific regarding my experience. However I've learned that anecdotes are not that helpful in these forums, so I try to avoid them. If you're curious you could do a search.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Isranner

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2018, 08:23:52 PM »
Swayze Foster [15:54]: «And it's not even a vegan issue at that point. Again, a lot of people should be taking B-12, a lot of people should be taking vitamin D, and the thought that they're not because they're worried that it's going to hurt their liver,…»

— Swayze Foster. "Blaire White: Quitting vegan is your choice, but please stop spreading lies". Unnatural Vegan's YouTube channel (2008-04-02) https://youtu.be/4shDtqE3L_8?t=954


— Now you could make a further video correcting your "skeptic" friends at The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe (I'm dead serious, that's a widespread belief among self-proclaimed "skeptics"):

Steve Novella [15:20]: «Yeah, that's evidence-based targeted supplementation based on lab values, yeah, for known conditions, like pregnant women or trying to get pregnant taking folic acid, yeah. But vitamin supplementation, there's no evidence for it.»

— Steven Novella et al. News Item: "Vitamin C Myth." The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe (2018-03-31) ep. 664
https://theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/664
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 08:37:54 PM by Isranner »

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2018, 09:20:55 PM »

I disagree with you whenever you claim that there’s a single diet that’s better than every other possible diet for weight loss and maintenance of a healthy body weight.

A claim I never make.
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Whenever you comment, regardless of the topic, you’re also displaying your opinion;  ‘I’m not a doctor, I’m just a guy who went on a LCHF ketogenic diet and lost weight and improved his health, then did a ton of research.’

It's called a forum signature. Lot's of people use them.
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My opinion is that you’re doing useless research, favouring quantity over quality.  I suspect your ‘research’ comes from the LCHF ketogenic diet partisans.  I’ve looked at their blogs.  I’m not impressed by its quality.

Pubmed is your friend. You probably have seen more of their blogs than I have.


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You’ve never been specific regarding your success with your LCHF ketogenic diet - not that I doubt that you were successful - if you’re motivated enough you will lose weight on any acceptable diet (and an acceptable diet is one that provides sufficient but not excessive calories, and adequate essential amino acids and fatty acids, minerals, and vitamins).  And attaining a healthy body weight is almost the be all and end all of health.

I've been on these forums for years now, and yes I have been very specific regarding my experience. However I've learned that anecdotes are not that helpful in these forums, so I try to avoid them. If you're curious you could do a search.

CarbShark,

Golly, you do post a lot, don’t you?  There’s not enough time in the world to look at 7000+ posts over 4 years.

You’re still not getting the point.  I’m not claiming that my high carbohydrate/low fat diet is better than your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet.  I don’t proselytise about it.  I think that there’s a wide range of acceptable diets, none of which stands out as ‘best.’

I’ve looked at many of your cited PubMet references, and they don’t show what you think they do.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2018, 10:17:58 AM »
So what's your point?


Is that not clear? That you employ a double standard. That it's OK for you to believe something that contradicts mainstream medical opinion aligning with a minority opinion but it's not OK for someone else.

I never said it's not okay for you to hold opinions that contradict mainstream medical views. I simply point out that your opinions do. I say this only in reply to your constant claims that the "real" science backs your opinions. If you came right out and said "I know that the preponderance of the evidence shows X but I believe Y," I'd have no problem with that. But you constantly cite outlier studies and fringe authorities and repeat the claim that doctors don't understand nutrition.

I'm quite happy to acknowledge when my opinions diverge from the mainstream. I'm not the least bothered when you assert that Dr. Novella holds a different opinion than I do. (I'm actually not entirely clear what his view is on the placebo effect.) You, OTOH, seem fixated on insisting that doctors don't read or cannot understand the medical literature on nutrition.

That's where I disagree with you: I think that by and large, they do understand nutrition.
Daniel
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2018, 10:33:52 AM »

You, OTOH, seem fixated on insisting that doctors don't read or cannot understand the medical literature on nutrition.


That is BS. I never said anything of the kind. I simply support a minority position that you don’t like.




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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2018, 01:50:26 PM »

You, OTOH, seem fixated on insisting that doctors don't read or cannot understand the medical literature on nutrition.


That is BS. I never said anything of the kind. I simply support a minority position that you don’t like.

No, you've said many times that doctors do not understand nutrition.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2018, 02:14:52 PM »

You, OTOH, seem fixated on insisting that doctors don't read or cannot understand the medical literature on nutrition.


That is BS. I never said anything of the kind. I simply support a minority position that you don’t like.

No, you've said many times that doctors do not understand nutrition.

Wow, that's quite a leap from do not understand to cannot understand, even if that's what I'd said. (It's not)

What I have said is that nutrition is not taught in medical schools (to med students studying to be doctors, of course), that it hasn't been a field of specialty (that is changing), most doctors rely on guidelines (which do more harm than good) and bias is rampant in the field.

Nutrition is not a field that most doctors are interested in studying, so most don't study it.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2018, 04:31:18 PM »

You, OTOH, seem fixated on insisting that doctors don't read or cannot understand the medical literature on nutrition.


That is BS. I never said anything of the kind. I simply support a minority position that you don’t like.

No, you've said many times that doctors do not understand nutrition.

Wow, that's quite a leap from do not understand to cannot understand, even if that's what I'd said. (It's not)

What I have said is that nutrition is not taught in medical schools (to med students studying to be doctors, of course), that it hasn't been a field of specialty (that is changing), most doctors rely on guidelines (which do more harm than good) and bias is rampant in the field.

Nutrition is not a field that most doctors are interested in studying, so most don't study it.

I’m a retired Australian medical practitioner.  I know that nutrition (and epidemiology - which one of my obstetrics professors once defined as ‘the study of man broken down by age and sex’ - it’s actually the study of correlations and causation of diseases in populations) - was taught in my university.  Extensively.  I don’t know what’s currently taught, either in Australia or America.  When I was a practicing anatomical pathologist, I noticed that my registrars (pathologists in training) didn’t seem to have much of a grounding in anatomy or histology.

But medical practitioners are interested in nutrition.  They also eat. 

What guidelines do you think that medical practitioners are taught and follow are wrong?  And what are the right guidelines you think that they should be taught and follow?

It’s difficult for a medical practitioner, in a consultation lasting less than 15’ once or twice a year (at most) to overcome the widespread advertising of fast food, alcohol and sugary drinks.

The guidelines that i follow as an interested food consumer are; maintain a healthy body weight, don’t consume simple sugars such as cane sugar, limit my alcohol consumption, have as wide a range of foods as possible (within my choice of a lacto-vegetarian diet), exercise daily, try to minimise stress and have periods of relaxation throughout the day). 

There’s a wide range of perfectly acceptable diets - I don’t disagree that your high fat/low carbohydrate ketogenic diet isn’t a perfectly acceptable diet.  But I also think that my high carbohydrate/low fat diet is perfectly acceptable too (and I’ve had 30+ years experience of it).

Proselytising for a particular diet is a sign of a fad.  There are no ‘magic’ diets that will overcome the influence of other poor lifestyle choices, such as being too sedentary.  Or consuming too much alcohol.  Or fast foods.  Or smoking.  I wonder what you’ll be saying if it turns out in future decades that the high fat/low carbohydrate ketogenic diet fails to reverse the trend to the increasing incidence of obesity and diabetes?

I’ve been around for a long time.  I’ve seen a lot of fad diets come.  And go.
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Offline martintolley

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Re: Episode #664
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2018, 02:40:57 AM »
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