Author Topic: Gender Worldviews  (Read 5324 times)

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Offline MattOnForums

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Gender Worldviews
« on: May 08, 2018, 04:39:13 AM »
Hi y'all,

I've recently taken an interest in the MGTOW 'movement'. I'll preface this by saying my interest is just that, I don't assign myself to that group and believe that large portion of the members have buried misogynistic beliefs. The part that does interest me that I can't reconcile or fully understand, is this idea that there is a massively different worldview between men and women.

Sure, there's enough environmental factors that could largely explain if not fully, the differences between each genders worldview but I'm wondering if there's other significant cognitive differences that arise from something innate and possibly very abstract and hard to capture then communicate.

I also understand there are biological factors such as levels of testosterone & estrogen, reproductive systems, and I've even read something about men having higher spacial awareness and women having higher colour/light sensitivity (which may have arised from the needs of hunter/gatherer societies).

A reductive, generalised example to get on the thread of abstraction I'm referring to: comparisons of women to cats and men to dogs. The feline reality is often viewed as being very subjective and externally fluid, they follow their emotions and are sensitive to light/colour stimuli and don't have object permanence. Whereas dogs (can be) goal orientated, (can have) object permanence and seem to be more externally active in nature.

I know:
- men and women can share traits
- cats and dogs are not women and men

Maybe the best way to pose my question is:

Could there be/are there cognitive properties that are not shared between genders that are not resulting from, reproductive (species or gender) necessities, or societal/environmental factors, that result in each gender seeing the world differently?

Similar to how humans and cats don't see the world the same way but we share the same reality and can communicate, but can never actually even imagine the others reality, or in the same way after you take a bag of shrooms vs being sober.

I get the sense that this may be is vague or presumptuous. If this is true, it isn't intentional. I'm just not sure how to reconcile this or see the folly.

Cheers,
Matt




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Offline Billzbub

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2018, 08:33:18 AM »
Let's just say up front that you are talking about men and women in general, admitting that of course there are outlier cases and that this discussion does not apply to all men and all women.

I'm curious to see if anyone has any info on this.  I know for sure that my wife and I experience the world differently, but I don't think it has anything to do with our genders.  As I go through life, I am usually thinking to myself random thoughts about what I've encountered that day or maybe what I want to do later on.  My wife on the other hand is almost always thinking about what she needs to do to accomplish the tasks on her list, and what tasks she can add to that list to help everyone around her.  I suppose it might be within the realm of possibility that men experience the world in a more self-centered way than women, but that is such a sweeping generalization that I'd be hesitant to believe it until I saw some pretty good evidence.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2018, 09:01:59 AM »
Trying to paint it across gender is still laying on a thick cultural/nurture bias over everything. I know years of operant conditioning means I don't see the world the same way as someone who didn't play "who's got the detonator button" for several years. Someone raised with a bias against people of color (conscious or otherwise) will see things very differently from someone who was raised with less of that bias.

If you want to determine what ways gender changes our worldview, it's best to start by looking at what the cultural biases are in the same way that you would want to begin by isolating variables in any study.
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Offline Rai

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2018, 09:45:27 AM »
First of all, you can't talk about biological differences with regards to gender, which is a purely social construct.

Secondly, people socialised into their respective genders, will surely have a different outlook on the world, just like how people socialised into their class or ethnic structures also see the world differently. The extent of these differences isn't really easy to generalise, as the different genders mean different things in different cultures, and are performed in often radically different ways.

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2018, 09:54:51 AM »
I would expect a guy half my size who grew up being told that he needed to be worried about rape and had been treated aggressively and dismissively by other men his whole life, to have a different outlook to me.
So I think it makes sense that a large portion of women would view the world differently to me because they experience it differently.
Psychology as a discipline (afaik) acknowledges a weakness in many studies is that they often lack demographic diversity due to coming from a pool of students. We dont think it at all strange to acknowledge that demographic bias exists in such situations, but try to point out that it may be at play in peoples general outlook when conforming with other members of their demographic and its politically correct culture over stepping and highly offensive blahblahblah.

Go figure.

Offline SnarlPatrick

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2018, 10:54:09 AM »
Given your interest in MGTOW, I'd like to introduce you to a concept that really got me interested in Men's issues. It is presented by a female MRA who goes by GirlWritesWhat. The concept is 'male disposability' And it is most easily shown with the example that throughout nearly all of history, men and not women have been chosen for death in war, while women were protected from combat largely. It is a species survival strategy left over from our evolution. Because of it, and this has been tested, both men and women feel less empathy towards male suffering. This has been shown in laboratory conditions. I think you'll find this perspective informative, if not necessarily persuasive. It certainly changed my perspective enormously.

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Offline Pdb

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2018, 01:58:45 AM »
First of all, you can't talk about biological differences with regards to gender, which is a purely social construct.

Secondly, people socialised into their respective genders, will surely have a different outlook on the world, just like how people socialised into their class or ethnic structures also see the world differently. The extent of these differences isn't really easy to generalise, as the different genders mean different things in different cultures, and are performed in often radically different ways.

Strange how these cultures all create differences in the same direction and of a similar magnitude. It’s almost as if culture comes out of our biology to round the rough edges rather than being some “oh, these darned cultures changing the rank orders of gender differences.”

Most cultures have men being more aggressive and women being more nurturing. Men also tend to be in positions of power and women tend to value social connections.
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Offline Rai

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2018, 02:03:17 AM »
Given your interest in MGTOW, I'd like to introduce you to a concept that really got me interested in Men's issues. It is presented by a female MRA who goes by GirlWritesWhat. The concept is 'male disposability' And it is most easily shown with the example that throughout nearly all of history, men and not women have been chosen for death in war, while women were protected from combat largely. It is a species survival strategy left over from our evolution. Because of it, and this has been tested, both men and women feel less empathy towards male suffering. This has been shown in laboratory conditions. I think you'll find this perspective informative, if not necessarily persuasive. It certainly changed my perspective enormously.



Just be careful going down the MRA rabbit hole, the vast majority of those folks are rabid, virulent misogynists.

Offline Pdb

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2018, 06:14:55 AM »
Given your interest in MGTOW, I'd like to introduce you to a concept that really got me interested in Men's issues. It is presented by a female MRA who goes by GirlWritesWhat. The concept is 'male disposability' And it is most easily shown with the example that throughout nearly all of history, men and not women have been chosen for death in war, while women were protected from combat largely. It is a species survival strategy left over from our evolution. Because of it, and this has been tested, both men and women feel less empathy towards male suffering. This has been shown in laboratory conditions. I think you'll find this perspective informative, if not necessarily persuasive. It certainly changed my perspective enormously.



 

Just be careful going down the MRA rabbit hole, the vast majority of those folks are rabid, virulent misogynists.

Just like most feminists are virulent misandrists. Most people that engage in this are extreme, normal people either don’t care or have better things to do than shout into the void.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 05:36:30 PM by Pdb »
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Offline heyalison

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2018, 12:11:36 PM »
To the OP:

I'm a woman. I'm sorry you've been led down this path, and are considering these ideas. I imagine you must feel very frustrated and alienated if you're seeing value in these ideologies, and I don't want to demonize you for that. But as easy an answer as these YouTubers, bloggers, and others in the manosphere offer, the truth is the world and people are much more complex than simply making an entire gender into the enemy. That path doesn't lead to self-awareness or happiness, just more and more bitterness and fear. In its extreme form it makes young men do tragic, tragic acts of violence, because they've been sold a world populated by enemies.

If you really want to believe women's perspectives and ideas are innately alien to those of men, I'd ask you to try this: For three months read nothing but writing by women about their lives and experiences. Autobiographies, essays, novels, TV shows. Read fiction written from the perspective of women, and search out works by women who aren't white, straight, or cisgender. Only one rule: Don't read women writing about MRA or MGOTW or any topic from the men's movement from either side, pro or con. Step away from it and learn about women's voices and lives apart from that (often vitriolic) debate. If at the end of those three months you still think women are as alien as this thread of thinking seems to be leading you, then there's nothing lost from trying to understand us. 

Also, there seem to be many men here who are good examples of both being secure and confident in their masculinity without needing to other or malign women. Search out these men to connect with and talk about your feelings. I think you'll see men who are far happier and so much less angry than those who surround themselves with the ideas of the men's rights' movement.

There's no red pill, just the denial that the world and people of all genders are more complex than they are. I hope you make the choices that bring you into a place where you can connect with women as people, and find deep, honest connections with them. I also hope you find a place where you can find men who are mentors, support, and friends who want you to be happy, and not just someone to be angry with.

Offline Calinthalus

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2018, 01:33:48 PM »
As we have proven that hormones and other biochemical factors can have an influence on personality and thought processes; I think it's fair to think that in the aggregate there can/will be some general differences between men (as a monolith) and women (as a monolith).  Likewise there are major societal and nurture differences applied throughout the life of any individual that would be difficult or possibly impossible at this time to separate from any biochemical factor. 


However, I'm pretty sure my thoughts and personality are further apart from Trump than they are from my wife's (who is a woman).


I don't think "a woman's" mind is any more or less inscrutable than any other individuals are.  But there can be differences on the aggregate, knowing that any individual will not be so easily pigeonholed.  Whether those differences are nature or nurture is up from some debate.
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Offline MattOnForums

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 11:34:22 PM »
To the OP:

I'm a woman. I'm sorry you've been led down this path, and are considering these ideas. I imagine you must feel very frustrated and alienated if you're seeing value in these ideologies, and I don't want to demonize you for that. But as easy an answer as these YouTubers, bloggers, and others in the manosphere offer, the truth is the world and people are much more complex than simply making an entire gender into the enemy. That path doesn't lead to self-awareness or happiness, just more and more bitterness and fear. In its extreme form it makes young men do tragic, tragic acts of violence, because they've been sold a world populated by enemies.

If you really want to believe women's perspectives and ideas are innately alien to those of men, I'd ask you to try this: For three months read nothing but writing by women about their lives and experiences. Autobiographies, essays, novels, TV shows. Read fiction written from the perspective of women, and search out works by women who aren't white, straight, or cisgender. Only one rule: Don't read women writing about MRA or MGOTW or any topic from the men's movement from either side, pro or con. Step away from it and learn about women's voices and lives apart from that (often vitriolic) debate. If at the end of those three months you still think women are as alien as this thread of thinking seems to be leading you, then there's nothing lost from trying to understand us. 

Also, there seem to be many men here who are good examples of both being secure and confident in their masculinity without needing to other or malign women. Search out these men to connect with and talk about your feelings. I think you'll see men who are far happier and so much less angry than those who surround themselves with the ideas of the men's rights' movement.

There's no red pill, just the denial that the world and people of all genders are more complex than they are. I hope you make the choices that bring you into a place where you can connect with women as people, and find deep, honest connections with them. I also hope you find a place where you can find men who are mentors, support, and friends who want you to be happy, and not just someone to be angry with.
Hi heyalison,

I appreciate your response. If it provides some comfort, I'd consider myself a feminist and I am very cautious about embracing any mysoginistic ideals. My interest does stem from a desire; to understand commonly shared perspectives found in different groups of the world, to be able to navigate my own life more effectively. There is a selfish desire in that but to mitigate the potential of being lead astray (out of selfishness) , I deeply scrutinise any controversial or offensive ideas and withhold from embodying them until they're able to withhold intellectual scrutiny. I was at the forming stage of this idea that there are innate differences in the world-view between men and women but at this point I think I'm ready to dismantle it, due to the comments in this thread. I believe that there are just too many environmental/biological variables influencing people and its improbable that there is a consistent perspective difference, if you were to isolate each of these variables.

I will actually take on your suggestion to read some famous women's autobiographies or works as it's not something I've done yet. If you have any recommendations where to start, please do let me know.

Thank you,
Matt.


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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2018, 03:31:04 AM »
I enjoy history - One item though when you look back is how casual the misogyny really was. Women were though to be incapable in roles that we can see today that they are very good in. They were often treated as almost children. 
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Offline Nosmas

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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018, 11:14:21 AM »

If you really want to believe women's perspectives and ideas are innately alien to those of men, I'd ask you to try this: For three months read nothing but writing by women about their lives and experiences. Autobiographies, essays, novels, TV shows. Read fiction written from the perspective of women, and search out works by women who aren't white, straight, or cisgender. Only one rule: Don't read women writing about MRA or MGOTW or any topic from the men's movement from either side, pro or con. Step away from it and learn about women's voices and lives apart from that (often vitriolic) debate. If at the end of those three months you still think women are as alien as this thread of thinking seems to be leading you, then there's nothing lost from trying to understand us. 

This is an interesting suggestion. I may give this a try myself, although I think I'm going to be less ambitious than three months.
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Re: Gender Worldviews
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 11:43:40 AM »
Because of it, and this has been tested

Oh yeah?

 

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