Author Topic: Episode #670  (Read 6979 times)

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Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 12:20:10 AM »
Have you heard the interview? Basically, he said CI is an amorphous blob of poorly defined ideas based on politics and miscommunications more than physics. Steve took him to task on some points (in the member's feed at least) but the core point is that CI really doesn't have a leg to stand on.
I listened to it this morning but found the interview to be an amorphous blob itself.

Miscommunication and politics in new sciences are hardly a phenomenon unique to quantum mechanics. Considering the era in which this took place and the implications of what they were all working on, what would be surprising is if politics and miscommunication were absent.

Consider for example the famed meeting of Bohr and Heisenberg in Copenhagen in 1941. It was all about politics and miscommunications, and for good reason. A discussion dealing purely with the physics may have had disastrous consequences.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 12:31:39 AM by Alex Simmons »

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2018, 12:23:21 AM »
Well, dingos aren’t domesticated dogs gone wild.  The CSIRO defines them as a separate species - Canis dingo.  Hibrids of dingos and domesticated dogs aren’t more likely to survive an ecological disaster killing off all humans.  Someone brings along a dingo hybrid to my local dog park, and it’s a gorgeous animal, but still very much dog-like in its behaviour in wanting to play.
If I had to bet as to what animal would survive an ecological disaster better, between one that’s already finding its own food from a variety of sources such as wolves (and dingos) and one that depends on humans for its food (often by begging) I know which one I’d put my money on.

Do you know how the dingoes' ancestors arrived in Australia?

• Jackson SM et al. "The Wayward Dog: Is the Australian native dog or Dingo a distinct species?" Zootaxa (2017) vol. 4317 (2) pp. 201-224 DOI: 10.11646/zootaxa.4317.2.1
https://biotaxa.org/Zootaxa/article/view/zootaxa.4317.2.1
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319470485

Isranner,

Yes, I do know how the dingo arrived in Australia.  They’re one of my favourite canids.  I love seeing them in the bush.  The Australian Conservancy Foundation, which I financially support with a substantial monthly donation, loves them too because they keep the number of feral cats down in their native animal sanctuaries.  Some people do keep dingos as pets, often unknowingly because they can resemble some breeds of kelpies, but they don’t behave like most domestic dogs.

The Australian Aborigines used to tolerate dingos to some extent before European invasion, but as soon as Europeans (and domestic dogs) arrived they adopted the domestic dog with enthusiasm.

Do you really think that the family pet is going to survive an ecological disaster better than a wild animal which is able to fend for itself, regardless of whether you think that there’s more genetic variability in domestic dogs as a whole?  And there’s probably a lot of genetic variation in wild animals provided the population is large and extensive enough.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2018, 12:51:43 AM »
It's going to be the mongrels and bitzers that survive the human-wiping disaster. In our quest for the purest breeds we have made those breeds incapable of surviving for long in the wild. But not all dogs are purebreeds. I doubt even a majority of them are.
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Offline Zec

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2018, 03:03:11 AM »
How would having hundreds of breeds help survival? 

it could be an advantage for adaptation. Perhaps a small breed of dogs would have a shorter evolutionary path to become a tree climbing squirrel-like animal.
Also, simply being small can be a good thing if food is scarse and you need to survive with  very little energy.
On the other hand If the ability of hunt would be useful in that particular environment, then wolves would be obviously better off.
But generally i can see as having a wide genetic diversity, from chiwawa to german sheppards, can be an advantage point for being able to fill different niches.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 05:25:51 AM by Zec »

Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2018, 08:04:04 AM »
My dog and I will be the first to die when the power goes out.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2018, 10:55:37 AM »
How would having hundreds of breeds help survival? 

it could be an advantage for adaptation. Perhaps a small breed of dogs would have a shorter evolutionary path to become a tree climbing squirrel-like animal.
Also, simply being small can be a good thing if food is scarse and you need to survive with  very little energy.
On the other hand If the ability of hunt would be useful in that particular environment, then wolves would be obviously better off.
But generally i can see as having a wide genetic diversity, from chiwawa to german sheppards, can be an advantage point for being able to fill different niches.

Smaller warm-blooded animals have a higher metabolic rate per weight than larger ones.  A smaller breed of domesticated dog would need to catch proportionately more prey than a larger breed, which would also be able to tackle a much wider range of prey.  Wolves, for example, can prey on large deer as well as smallish rodents.  A chihuahua would be restricted to small rodents, and it would have to catch a lot of them.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2018, 10:59:41 AM »
My dog and I will be the first to die when the power goes out.


If you die first it would be a while before your dog starved


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« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 01:16:31 PM by CarbShark »
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2018, 11:04:00 AM »

Do you really think that the family pet is going to survive an ecological disaster better than a wild animal which is able to fend for itself, regardless of whether you think that there’s more genetic variability in domestic dogs as a whole?  And there’s probably a lot of genetic variation in wild animals provided the population is large and extensive enough.

The one advantage that domestic dogs have over most wild predators is they are pack animals, more so than wolves or hyenas.

How much of an edge that would give them would depend on a lot of factors, but in some environments they could thrive



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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2018, 11:23:29 AM »
My dog and I will be the first to die when the power goes out.


If you die first it would be a while before your god starved


Indeed. Even before you die you may be in for an adventure.

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Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2018, 11:37:47 AM »
I listened to it this morning but found the interview to be an amorphous blob itself.


Yeah me too.  They shit on the CI ideas without really providing any detail.

I think of it as the Schrodinger's Cat set of ideas - all the ideas where you think "that can't possibly be the way it is, but it makes the math work so go with it."
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2018, 01:16:10 PM »
My dog and I will be the first to die when the power goes out.


If you die first it would be a while before your dog starved




Indeed. Even before you die you may be in for an adventure.

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2013/07/30/dog-eats-paralyzed-mans-testicle-as-he-sleeps/

True story...

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline gebobs

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2018, 01:48:04 PM »
Yes, I do know how the dingo arrived in Australia.


Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2018, 02:31:16 PM »

Do you really think that the family pet is going to survive an ecological disaster better than a wild animal which is able to fend for itself, regardless of whether you think that there’s more genetic variability in domestic dogs as a whole?  And there’s probably a lot of genetic variation in wild animals provided the population is large and extensive enough.

The one advantage that domestic dogs have over most wild predators is they are pack animals, more so than wolves or hyenas.

How much of an edge that would give them would depend on a lot of factors, but in some environments they could thrive



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Not really.  Dogs form packs when they’re playing - for example at the dog park - but as soon as their owners leave (usually) the dog leaves the pack to go home (usually to get treats or to get fed).  The packs dogs form are usually not for feeding.  Domestic dogs forming packs in rural areas and worrying livestock are usually doing it for fun not food.

Wolves form packs that are long lasting with a fixed hierarchy, and they cooperate in hunting for food and feeding nursing bitches and young, which domestic dogs don’t do.

Wolves are much more like humans than domestic dogs
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Offline Isranner

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2018, 04:58:06 PM »
Well, dingos aren’t domesticated dogs gone wild.  The CSIRO defines them as a separate species - Canis dingo.  Hibrids of dingos and domesticated dogs aren’t more likely to survive an ecological disaster killing off all humans.  Someone brings along a dingo hybrid to my local dog park, and it’s a gorgeous animal, but still very much dog-like in its behaviour in wanting to play.
If I had to bet as to what animal would survive an ecological disaster better, between one that’s already finding its own food from a variety of sources such as wolves (and dingos) and one that depends on humans for its food (often by begging) I know which one I’d put my money on.

Do you know how the dingoes' ancestors arrived in Australia?

• Jackson SM et al. "The Wayward Dog: Is the Australian native dog or Dingo a distinct species?" Zootaxa (2017) vol. 4317 (2) pp. 201-224 DOI: 10.11646/zootaxa.4317.2.1
https://biotaxa.org/Zootaxa/article/view/zootaxa.4317.2.1
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319470485

Isranner,

Yes, I do know how the dingo arrived in Australia…

In such case you must be experiencing cognitive dissonance, since dingoes' ancestors were wolves that were domesticated and introduced in Australia by humans, and once there, they went back to live in the wild, what makes them a particular kind of feral dogs regardless of how CSIRO likes to name them.

«The problem with cognitive dissonance is that it can be hard to know whether your opponent is experiencing it or you are. It looks exactly the same to you. The person in the illusion can’t tell the difference.»

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http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/05/15/how-to-know-you-won-a-political-debate-on-the

… Some people do keep dingos as pets, often unknowingly because they can resemble some breeds of kelpies, but they don’t behave like most domestic dogs.

That's because dingoes are an ancient "primitive" dog population that split off from most other domestic dog populations numerous thousands of years ago. Besides, if those dingoes descend from feral dingoes, their lineage has been exposed to new selective environmental pressures that have likely influenced their behaviour. If anything, it shows how readily a domestic population is able adapt to a new wild environment.

The Australian Aborigines used to tolerate dingos to some extent before European invasion, but as soon as Europeans (and domestic dogs) arrived they adopted the domestic dog with enthusiasm.

The Australian Aborigines did have their own domestic dogs before the arrival of the Europeans which were very similar to the "feral" dingoes (see the paper I quoted above).

Do you really think that the family pet is going to survive an ecological disaster better than a wild animal which is able to fend for itself, regardless of whether you think that there’s more genetic variability in domestic dogs as a whole?  And there’s probably a lot of genetic variation in wild animals provided the population is large and extensive enough.

First, I said nothing about "genetic diversity".
Second, I have nothing to "think", there are numerous well-documented examples of feral dog populations surviving in the wild. Dingoes are just the most well-known example and one of the oldest known together with New Guinea singing dogs.

«Dog use of natural areas alters both the behavior of predator and prey species. In a Colorado study, red fox numbers increased in areas of feral dog use, whereas bobcat numbers decreased due to dog use (Lenth et al. 2006). The authors also found that potential prey items such as squirrels (Sciurus spp.), rabbits (Sylviagus spp.), chipmunks (Eutamias spp.), and mice (Peromyscus spp., Reithrodontomys spp., Onychomys spp., Zapus spp.) were lower in areas of feral dog use.
Feral dogs have been documented killing deer in Idaho, Colorado, and Illinois (Denney 1974, Nesbitt 1975, Lowry and McArther 1978). Wildlife Services annual tables from 1998–2006 contain reports of dog predation on elk (Cervus elaphus), white-tailed deer, mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus), and pronghorn (Antilocapra americana). Additional wildlife species affected include colonial waterbirds and wild turkeys (Meleagris gallopavo). The Navajo Nation Department of Fish and Wildlife suspects that feral dogs are the primary reason for the reduction of deer populations in areas around reservation communities (G. Tom, Navajo Nation Department of Fish and Wildlife, personal communication).»


— Bergman D, Breck SW, Bender S. "Dogs Gone Wild: Feral Dog Damage in the United States." USDA National Wildlife Research Center - Staff Publications (2009) 862 ; Proceedings of the 13th WDM Conference (2009) pp. 177-183
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/icwdm_usdanwrc/862
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259361083
http://www.academia.edu/12103669
http://www.academia.edu/26000470

Third, dogs present a couple of advantages over, say, wolves to survive an "ecological disaster", and those are their much larger effective population and their more widespread distribution. There are dogs pretty much everywhere in the world. In all continents, in most islands, in deserts, savannahs, prairies, rainforests, mountains, river basins and coasts, in tropical, subtropical, temperate, cool and cold climates. And there are hundreds of millions of them:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/canine-corner/201209/how-many-dogs-are-there-in-the-world
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 05:24:28 PM by Isranner »

Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: Episode #670
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2018, 05:02:41 PM »
My dog and I will be the first to die when the power goes out.


If you die first it would be a while before your god starved


Indeed. Even before you die you may be in for an adventure.

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2013/07/30/dog-eats-paralyzed-mans-testicle-as-he-sleeps/

This would be my dog. Her internal dinner clock is amazingly accurate.
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