Author Topic: Episode #670  (Read 1622 times)

Eternally Learning and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline bachfiend

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2018, 06:50:24 PM »
Isrammer,

‘The Dingo Debate.  Origins, Behaviour and Conservation’ by Bradley Smith CSIRO Publishing 2015. 

‘Species’ is a rather artificial concept.

The dingo isn’t a domestic dog, in the way that most people would think of domestic dogs in terms of the family pet, that went feral.  They were wild or semi-wild canids that tolerated humans to some extent.  The Australian Aborigines were nomadic hunter-gatherers who didn’t domesticate the dingo to be helpers in hunting.  The dingoes just accompanied nomadic humans and scavenged from the camps as village dogs do.

I’m pretty certain that the dingo, despite lacking the genetic variation of domestic dogs, would survive an ecological disaster far better than domestic dogs.  Dingoes live in a wide range of environments anyway and managed to survive just fine.  Domestic dogs would be unlikely to survive an ecological disaster - their learning curve to be able to find their own food instead of just having it provided for them would be very steep (in the sa,e way that if there was an ecological disaster most of the 7+ billion humans wouldn’t survive either).

Also, most domestic dogs are sterilised.  Their genetic variation to a fairly high percentage is a dead end.


Offline bachfiend

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2018, 11:50:16 AM »
https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-01/moscows-stray-dogs-evolving-greater-intelligence-wolf-characteristics-and-mastery-subway

Zec,

So what does that prove?  The argument is whether domestic dogs would be able to survive an ecological disaster, eliminating humans, better than wolves (and eventually evolve into multiple other species exploiting empty ecological niches such as a cat-like niche).

The Moscow dogs are still dependent on humans.  It’s not surprising that there’s a severe selective pressure on the intelligent or more adaptable dogs, but if all humans were eliminated not even they would survive.  Let alone evolve into something else.

Offline CarbShark

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7758
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2018, 12:12:34 PM »
Isrammer,

‘The Dingo Debate.  Origins, Behaviour and Conservation’ by Bradley Smith CSIRO Publishing 2015. 

‘Species’ is a rather artificial concept.

The dingo isn’t a domestic dog, in the way that most people would think of domestic dogs in terms of the family pet, that went feral.  They were wild or semi-wild canids that tolerated humans to some extent.  The Australian Aborigines were nomadic hunter-gatherers who didn’t domesticate the dingo to be helpers in hunting.  The dingoes just accompanied nomadic humans and scavenged from the camps as village dogs do.

I’m pretty certain that the dingo, despite lacking the genetic variation of domestic dogs, would survive an ecological disaster far better than domestic dogs.  Dingoes live in a wide range of environments anyway and managed to survive just fine.  Domestic dogs would be unlikely to survive an ecological disaster - their learning curve to be able to find their own food instead of just having it provided for them would be very steep (in the sa,e way that if there was an ecological disaster most of the 7+ billion humans wouldn’t survive either).

Also, most domestic dogs are sterilised.  Their genetic variation to a fairly high percentage is a dead end.

What exactly does "survive better" mean? Either the species survives or it doesn't. Maybe flourish, or dominate their environment?

There is evidence of domestic dogs going feral, and surviving quite nicely in some environments.

As for "most domestic dogs are sterilized" that's probably false, and not terribly relevant. Although a sterilized dog won't pass their genes on to another generation, they will join packs, and contribute to the health and survival of the pack, which will help propagate the species. It would not take long for any impact of spaying and neutering to disappear.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who went on a LCHF ketogenic diet and lost weight and improved his health, then did a ton of research. LCHF (Low Carb, High Fat Moderate Protein Ketogenic)

Offline bachfiend

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2018, 12:38:36 PM »
Isrammer,

‘The Dingo Debate.  Origins, Behaviour and Conservation’ by Bradley Smith CSIRO Publishing 2015. 

‘Species’ is a rather artificial concept.

The dingo isn’t a domestic dog, in the way that most people would think of domestic dogs in terms of the family pet, that went feral.  They were wild or semi-wild canids that tolerated humans to some extent.  The Australian Aborigines were nomadic hunter-gatherers who didn’t domesticate the dingo to be helpers in hunting.  The dingoes just accompanied nomadic humans and scavenged from the camps as village dogs do.

I’m pretty certain that the dingo, despite lacking the genetic variation of domestic dogs, would survive an ecological disaster far better than domestic dogs.  Dingoes live in a wide range of environments anyway and managed to survive just fine.  Domestic dogs would be unlikely to survive an ecological disaster - their learning curve to be able to find their own food instead of just having it provided for them would be very steep (in the sa,e way that if there was an ecological disaster most of the 7+ billion humans wouldn’t survive either).

Also, most domestic dogs are sterilised.  Their genetic variation to a fairly high percentage is a dead end.

What exactly does "survive better" mean? Either the species survives or it doesn't. Maybe flourish, or dominate their environment?

There is evidence of domestic dogs going feral, and surviving quite nicely in some environments.

As for "most domestic dogs are sterilized" that's probably false, and not terribly relevant. Although a sterilized dog won't pass their genes on to another generation, they will join packs, and contribute to the health and survival of the pack, which will help propagate the species. It would not take long for any impact of spaying and neutering to disappear.

CarbShark,

‘Survives better’ means they have a better chance of not going extinct.  Instead of having a 90% chance of going extinct, having an 80% chance.  A species that has gone extinct won’t evolve.  A species which almost goes extinct, such as Homo sapiens 70-75 thousand years ago could evolve.

Do you have any examples of domestic dogs forming cooperative packs similar to that of wolves?  Wolves have social packs, with only a few animals actually breeding, the remainder helping to support the nursing bitch and her pups, which is a great survival tactic in difficult times.  Domestic dogs breed anytime, with any dog able to breed.  Do you think that a domestic dog in whatever pack you think they’ll form will support unrelated dogs as wolves do?

And what are your examples of domestic dogs going feral and surviving quite nicely in some environments?  Were they fully domesticated?  And in which environments and for how long?

Offline CarbShark

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7758
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2018, 01:19:17 PM »
Here’s a good starting place for you. Once you’ve learned the very basics of the topic we can discuss further

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-ranging_dog?wprov=sfti1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who went on a LCHF ketogenic diet and lost weight and improved his health, then did a ton of research. LCHF (Low Carb, High Fat Moderate Protein Ketogenic)

Offline bachfiend

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2018, 01:37:08 PM »
Here’s a good starting place for you. Once you’ve learned the very basics of the topic we can discuss further

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-ranging_dog?wprov=sfti1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CarbShark,

Care to explain how domestic dogs going wild, or stray, form cooperative packs increasing the chance of survival of the pack?

Offline CarbShark

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7758
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2018, 02:14:57 PM »
Here’s a good starting place for you. Once you’ve learned the very basics of the topic we can discuss further

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-ranging_dog?wprov=sfti1

Care to explain how domestic dogs going wild, or stray, form cooperative packs increasing the chance of survival of the pack?

A pack of wild dogs is formidable and less vulnerable than a lone dog, giving each member of the pack a greater probability of survival.

How? Well, animals are social dogs. When feral dogs or stray dogs encounter others they react in various ways. One reaction is to form a pack or bring a stray into a pack.

And somehow, non-neutered dogs can magically locate any nearby un-spayed female. And they form their own special pack.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who went on a LCHF ketogenic diet and lost weight and improved his health, then did a ton of research. LCHF (Low Carb, High Fat Moderate Protein Ketogenic)

Offline bachfiend

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2018, 03:52:17 PM »
Here’s a good starting place for you. Once you’ve learned the very basics of the topic we can discuss further

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-ranging_dog?wprov=sfti1

Care to explain how domestic dogs going wild, or stray, form cooperative packs increasing the chance of survival of the pack?

A pack of wild dogs is formidable and less vulnerable than a lone dog, giving each member of the pack a greater probability of survival.

How? Well, animals are social dogs. When feral dogs or stray dogs encounter others they react in various ways. One reaction is to form a pack or bring a stray into a pack.

And somehow, non-neutered dogs can magically locate any nearby un-spayed female. And they form their own special pack.

CarbShark,

Care to explain how an accidentally formed pack of wild or stray domestic dogs is going to do better than an organised social pack of wolves which have evolved their social structure over hundreds of thousands if not millions of years?

The first time a bitch goes into heat in an accidentally formed pack of domestic dogs, the pack is going to disintegrate as the males attempt to preferentially mate.

Wolves have evolved a social pack structure to reduce aggression and enhance cooperation within the pack.  Domestic dogs haven’t - if anything they acquired the ability to form a pack with humans, not other dogs.

What I’m saying is that wolves would survive an ecological disaster eliminating humans better than domestic dogs.  Nothing more.  I’m not saying that domestic dogs couldn’t survive a (rather hypothetical) ecological disaster eliminating humans (perhaps some ‘the Stand’ type pandemic virus with an almost 100% mortality) - but I doubt it.

We wouldn’t know the answer unless it happened.  In which case, we wouldn’t know the answer.

Offline arthwollipot

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 6689
  • Observer of Phenomena
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2018, 04:58:02 PM »
Oh dear, what was once an interesting discussion has once again devolved into the CarbShark And Bachfiend Show.

Losing interest in 10... 9... one zero.

Offline CarbShark

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7758
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2018, 05:40:49 PM »
Here’s a good starting place for you. Once you’ve learned the very basics of the topic we can discuss further

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-ranging_dog?wprov=sfti1

Care to explain how domestic dogs going wild, or stray, form cooperative packs increasing the chance of survival of the pack?

A pack of wild dogs is formidable and less vulnerable than a lone dog, giving each member of the pack a greater probability of survival.

How? Well, animals are social dogs. When feral dogs or stray dogs encounter others they react in various ways. One reaction is to form a pack or bring a stray into a pack.

And somehow, non-neutered dogs can magically locate any nearby un-spayed female. And they form their own special pack.


Quote
Care to explain how an accidentally formed pack of wild or stray domestic dogs is going to do better than an organised social pack of wolves which have evolved their social structure over hundreds of thousands if not millions of years?

Geese. No where has anyone here said they'd do better. My argument is that they would not go extinct. From that you leap to doing better than wolves.

Quote
The first time a bitch goes into heat in an accidentally formed pack of domestic dogs, the pack is going to disintegrate as the males attempt to preferentially mate.

Does not happen.

Quote
Wolves have evolved a social pack structure to reduce aggression and enhance cooperation within the pack.  Domestic dogs haven’t - if anything they acquired the ability to form a pack with humans, not other dogs.

There are probably a number of environments that fit the behavior of wolves much better than the behavior of dogs. There are probably environments where wolves would survive and dogs would not. The converse may also be true.


Quote
What I’m saying is that wolves would survive an ecological disaster eliminating humans better than domestic dogs.  Nothing more.  I’m not saying that domestic dogs couldn’t survive a (rather hypothetical) ecological disaster eliminating humans (perhaps some ‘the Stand’ type pandemic virus with an almost 100% mortality) - but I doubt it.

And that could be correct. My point is that domestic dogs would not go extinct, and what evidence we have of domestic dogs gone feral in the wild supports that claim.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who went on a LCHF ketogenic diet and lost weight and improved his health, then did a ton of research. LCHF (Low Carb, High Fat Moderate Protein Ketogenic)

Offline CarbShark

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7758
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2018, 05:42:21 PM »
Oh dear, what was once an interesting discussion has once again devolved into the CarbShark And Bachfiend Show.

Losing interest in 10... 9... one zero.

I see what you mean.

I've said what I said and now I'm out.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who went on a LCHF ketogenic diet and lost weight and improved his health, then did a ton of research. LCHF (Low Carb, High Fat Moderate Protein Ketogenic)

Offline Physicity

  • Doesn't Panic
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2018, 05:51:45 PM »

Steve is right saying that you cannot de.evolve certain things. For exemple you probably won't go back to lying eggs once you are a mammal, because it's hard to imagine any selective pressure do that.
but dogs would certanly loose most specialised caracteristics they have, once they are not selectively bred by their environment (humans in this case), and they will slowly fill all the available nices.
they will certainly evolve the ability to climb trees, that's easy to imagine.
And eventually we can even expect marine mammals evolving from dogs, or flying animals (like we' got bats from "mice-like" ancestors, not very far off)
. they would definately not be "dogs" animore, there'd be just all sort of species descending from those dogs.

I think Steve meant you can't de-evolve at all.  You just evolve (or stand still in evolutionary terms, in some regards, like a crocodile - although they have genetically evolved even if their physical form hasn't evolved in a long time).  So a mammal that started laying eggs would evolve that ability, even if an ancestor had lost that ability.  Evolution isn't heading to an end point and you don't go 'backwards' to an ancestral form even if you evolve similarities to them.  Evolution is a bit like time's arrow, it's only heading forward, never backwards.

Offline Zec

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2018, 07:34:58 PM »


CarbShark,

Care to explain how domestic dogs going wild, or stray, form cooperative packs increasing the chance of survival of the pack?

This whole conversation has gone a little wrong.
If someone (Steve Novella) says “let’s assume only dogs would survive” you can’t answer “that’s no way dogs would survive”.
 that’s just faulty logic if you know the meaning of “assumption”.

Offline bachfiend

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
Re: Episode #670
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2018, 10:47:23 PM »


CarbShark,

Care to explain how domestic dogs going wild, or stray, form cooperative packs increasing the chance of survival of the pack?

This whole conversation has gone a little wrong.
If someone (Steve Novella) says “let’s assume only dogs would survive” you can’t answer “that’s no way dogs would survive”.
 that’s just faulty logic if you know the meaning of “assumption”.

It’s a very hypothetical argument.  It started when on of the panelists wondered whether dogs could evolve into cats.  And Steve (correctly) noted that dogs wouldn’t evolve into cats (they’d need to de-evolve, losing all the characteristics that make them dogs, all the way back to the last common ancestor of cats and dogs, and then evolve all the characteristics that make cats cats).

He did argue that dogs could evolve into something that’s similar to cats, which is true enough.

I just noted that wolves as dogs could possibly survive an ecological disaster killing off humans, but that dogs as dogs wouldn’t.  It’s the specialists that go extinct in mass extinction events.  The generalists are the ones that survive and radiate into the empty ecological niches.  Such as the Lystrosaurus after the end of Permian mass extinction (which was a herbivore not a carnivore).

Wolves are generalists.  They hunt and eat a wide selection of foods.  Domestic dogs are specialists, even if there are multiple specialties in multiple breeds.  Domestic dogs tend to be one-trick ponies.

 

personate-rain