Author Topic: Episode #680  (Read 1532 times)

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Offline Steven Novella

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Episode #680
« on: July 21, 2018, 09:56:40 AM »
Live from NECSS 2018 with special guest Bill Nye
News Items: Time Machine, Iceman's Last Meal, Training for Mars, Cosmic Ray Source, Virtual Reality Therapy, Testing Gravity
What's the Word: Definitions
Science or Fiction
Steven Novella
Host, The Skeptics Guide
snovella@theness.com

Offline wiserwords

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2018, 01:57:27 PM »
Aaargh...
I love you guys, but the way you keep butchering the poor iceman's name is really cringeworthy. Ootsy, Oatsy? Noooo!
There´s something called Youtube. Check for example here, at 0:10 

Offline PabloHoney

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2018, 04:06:39 PM »
Thanks a lot, Cara.   :cara:
Now I'm hungry for ibex meat.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2018, 11:56:04 PM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet® is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2018, 12:03:36 AM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet® is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?
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Offline Marzipan

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2018, 02:00:01 AM »
Speaking of Bill Nye:

The documentary made about him, "Bill Nye: Science Guy" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4853154/) is now available on Netflix, at least here in Australia.

(Not be confused with his science show reboot which is also on Netflix.)

The documentary talks about his life, his involvement in the solar sail project, and his attempts to stem the tide of anti-science, especially when it comes to creationism and climate denial. It also doesn't shy away from giving those a voice who are critical of some of his decisions. I highly recommend it.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2018, 05:30:02 AM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet® is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?

He was eating wheat.  Maybe he stole it.  You might be right. 
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2018, 06:25:49 AM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet® is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?

He was eating wheat.  Maybe he stole it.  You might be right.

And maybe he was a hunter-gatherer who was trading his catches for different food produced by established agriculturalists.
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Online CarbShark

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Episode #680
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2018, 10:10:16 AM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?
Cheese and milk.

Not just that, it matters not if he was a farmer, a hunter gatherer or a trader or a thief, His diet was changed  by agriculture   


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« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 10:13:10 AM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2018, 02:43:33 PM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet® is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?

He was eating wheat.  Maybe he stole it.  You might be right.

And maybe he was a hunter-gatherer who was trading his catches for different food produced by established agriculturalists.

My point is really that the Paleo Diet as described by it's author is not a meat or fat heavy diet, based mainly on extant hunter gatherers that were not eating agricultural products.  People just slam it without any knowledge of what it is.  It should have been named what is often used as "ancestral eating" and isn't trademarked and is more flexible.



"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2018, 03:12:13 PM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?
Cheese and milk.

Not just that, it matters not if he was a farmer, a hunter gatherer or a trader or a thief, His diet was changed  by agriculture   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Evidence that he’d eaten cheese and/or milk?

Agreed.  His diet probably had been changed by agriculture.  As a hunter-gatherer, the much more successful agricultural communities had pushed him into marginal hunting grounds in the Austrian/Italian mountains.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2018, 03:42:45 PM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?
Cheese and milk.

Not just that, it matters not if he was a farmer, a hunter gatherer or a trader or a thief, His diet was changed  by agriculture   
Agreed.  His diet probably had been changed by agriculture. As a hunter-gatherer, the much more successful agricultural communities had pushed him into marginal hunting grounds in the Austrian/Italian mountains.

That's assuming a lot of things that we don't know. We don't know that he was a hunter-gatherer. He could have been, or he could have been a farmer, a rancher, a trader, a fugitive, a pilgrim, etc.
[/quote]
Quote
Evidence that he’d eaten cheese and/or milk?

Aside from the goat cheese they found in his stomach?

There was an NPR interview last year where they discussed ancient cheese in depth. Apparently, the bacteria that produces the enzyme needed to make cheese occurs only in one of the stomach of a young calf. Their stomachs were used as canteens, and when they were used to carry milk, cheese would sometimes result. Sometime not long after the advent of agriculture Europeans had figured out a way to consistently make cheese this way (and store surplus milk) and over the millennia the techniques were refined and perfected.

But this guy used a calf stomach with evidence of milk and/or cheese.  Since it's hard to get milk from a wild cow or goat, it's reasonable to assume it came from a domesticated animal.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2018, 07:36:08 PM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?
Cheese and milk.

Not just that, it matters not if he was a farmer, a hunter gatherer or a trader or a thief, His diet was changed  by agriculture   
Agreed.  His diet probably had been changed by agriculture. As a hunter-gatherer, the much more successful agricultural communities had pushed him into marginal hunting grounds in the Austrian/Italian mountains.

That's assuming a lot of things that we don't know. We don't know that he was a hunter-gatherer. He could have been, or he could have been a farmer, a rancher, a trader, a fugitive, a pilgrim, etc.
Quote
Evidence that he’d eaten cheese and/or milk?

Aside from the goat cheese they found in his stomach?

There was an NPR interview last year where they discussed ancient cheese in depth. Apparently, the bacteria that produces the enzyme needed to make cheese occurs only in one of the stomach of a young calf. Their stomachs were used as canteens, and when they were used to carry milk, cheese would sometimes result. Sometime not long after the advent of agriculture Europeans had figured out a way to consistently make cheese this way (and store surplus milk) and over the millennia the techniques were refined and perfected.

But this guy used a calf stomach with evidence of milk and/or cheese.  Since it's hard to get milk from a wild cow or goat, it's reasonable to assume it came from a domesticated animal.
[/quote]

Evidence that his diet included goat cheese?  The reports of his last week’s meals don’t include cheese as a component.  In addition, DNA analysis from 2012 showed that he was lactose intolerant, so apparently he didn’t have a long ancestrage of herding.

It’s all conjectural how he actually lived.  They’re all just stories.

I also don’t know how humans hit upon the idea of how to make cheese.  No one does.  It’s just conjecture.  I doubt that Europeans developed it after the advent of agriculture.  If I had to guess, I’d assume it was actually the herding Mongolians, along with yoghurt (one of their greatest gifts to posterity) and fermented horse milk (not so much, on the list of the worst alcoholic drinks it comes in as number 10 - I’ve had one, and it’s terrible; I wouldn’t want to try numbers 1-9).
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2018, 08:25:28 PM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?
Cheese and milk.

Not just that, it matters not if he was a farmer, a hunter gatherer or a trader or a thief, His diet was changed  by agriculture   
Agreed.  His diet probably had been changed by agriculture. As a hunter-gatherer, the much more successful agricultural communities had pushed him into marginal hunting grounds in the Austrian/Italian mountains.

That's assuming a lot of things that we don't know. We don't know that he was a hunter-gatherer. He could have been, or he could have been a farmer, a rancher, a trader, a fugitive, a pilgrim, etc.
Quote
Evidence that he’d eaten cheese and/or milk?

Aside from the goat cheese they found in his stomach?

There was an NPR interview last year where they discussed ancient cheese in depth. Apparently, the bacteria that produces the enzyme needed to make cheese occurs only in one of the stomach of a young calf. Their stomachs were used as canteens, and when they were used to carry milk, cheese would sometimes result. Sometime not long after the advent of agriculture Europeans had figured out a way to consistently make cheese this way (and store surplus milk) and over the millennia the techniques were refined and perfected.

But this guy used a calf stomach with evidence of milk and/or cheese.  Since it's hard to get milk from a wild cow or goat, it's reasonable to assume it came from a domesticated animal.
Quote
Quote

Evidence that his diet included goat cheese?  The reports of his last week’s meals don’t include cheese as a component. 
There was goat cheese in his stomach.
Quote

Quote
In addition, DNA analysis from 2012 showed that he was lactose intolerant, so apparently he didn’t have a long ancestrage of herding.

Many people with lactose intolerance can handle goat milk (and cheese) just fine. (Although it does have lactose).

 
Quote
I also don’t know how humans hit upon the idea of how to make cheese.  No one does.  It’s just conjecture.  I doubt that Europeans developed it after the advent of agriculture.  If I had to guess, I’d assume it was actually the herding Mongolians, along with yoghurt (one of their greatest gifts to posterity) and fermented horse milk (not so much, on the list of the worst alcoholic drinks it comes in as number 10 - I’ve had one, and it’s terrible; I wouldn’t want to try numbers 1-9).




Well archeologists and anthropologists have pretty well solved that mystery a long time ago, and the evidence from the Iceman simply reinforced the theory.

The theory being that the stomachs of slaughtered animals, including cattle, were used as containers for liquids and other things (grains, flours). The bacteria that creates the enzyme that turns milk into cheese occurs naturally in one of the stomachs of calves. Milk, carried in one of those stomachs on a cross-country trek in cold weather will turn to cheese. And Mr. Ice Man had on his body a calf's stomach used to hold milk.

A few trips like that every few weeks, and those clever humans were able to put together all the ingredients and, viola, fromage!

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #680
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2018, 10:43:04 PM »
Cordain's Paleo Diet is based on pre agricultural human diets, BTW; no matter how many variants have issued forth. Otzi was clearly from an agricultural society.

How do you know that?  Why couldn’t he have been one of the hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the newly migrating agricultural societies who were then displacing hunter-gatherers?
Cheese and milk.

Not just that, it matters not if he was a farmer, a hunter gatherer or a trader or a thief, His diet was changed  by agriculture   
Agreed.  His diet probably had been changed by agriculture. As a hunter-gatherer, the much more successful agricultural communities had pushed him into marginal hunting grounds in the Austrian/Italian mountains.

That's assuming a lot of things that we don't know. We don't know that he was a hunter-gatherer. He could have been, or he could have been a farmer, a rancher, a trader, a fugitive, a pilgrim, etc.
Quote
Evidence that he’d eaten cheese and/or milk?

Aside from the goat cheese they found in his stomach?

There was an NPR interview last year where they discussed ancient cheese in depth. Apparently, the bacteria that produces the enzyme needed to make cheese occurs only in one of the stomach of a young calf. Their stomachs were used as canteens, and when they were used to carry milk, cheese would sometimes result. Sometime not long after the advent of agriculture Europeans had figured out a way to consistently make cheese this way (and store surplus milk) and over the millennia the techniques were refined and perfected.

But this guy used a calf stomach with evidence of milk and/or cheese.  Since it's hard to get milk from a wild cow or goat, it's reasonable to assume it came from a domesticated animal.
Quote
Quote

Evidence that his diet included goat cheese?  The reports of his last week’s meals don’t include cheese as a component. 
There was goat cheese in his stomach.
Quote

Quote
In addition, DNA analysis from 2012 showed that he was lactose intolerant, so apparently he didn’t have a long ancestrage of herding.

Many people with lactose intolerance can handle goat milk (and cheese) just fine. (Although it does have lactose).

 
Quote
I also don’t know how humans hit upon the idea of how to make cheese.  No one does.  It’s just conjecture.  I doubt that Europeans developed it after the advent of agriculture.  If I had to guess, I’d assume it was actually the herding Mongolians, along with yoghurt (one of their greatest gifts to posterity) and fermented horse milk (not so much, on the list of the worst alcoholic drinks it comes in as number 10 - I’ve had one, and it’s terrible; I wouldn’t want to try numbers 1-9).




Well archeologists and anthropologists have pretty well solved that mystery a long time ago, and the evidence from the Iceman simply reinforced the theory.

The theory being that the stomachs of slaughtered animals, including cattle, were used as containers for liquids and other things (grains, flours). The bacteria that creates the enzyme that turns milk into cheese occurs naturally in one of the stomachs of calves. Milk, carried in one of those stomachs on a cross-country trek in cold weather will turn to cheese. And Mr. Ice Man had on his body a calf's stomach used to hold milk.

A few trips like that every few weeks, and those clever humans were able to put together all the ingredients and, viola, fromage!

Reference please.  A calf’s stomach isn’t listed in any of the sources I’ve read of Ötzi’s possessions.
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