Author Topic: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy  (Read 1315 times)

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2018, 09:11:57 PM »
I think there's a big difference between being caught in a news reporting and actively tracking me, yes. Similarly, if someone happens to get a bathing suit shot of a 15 year old on the beach as part of a panoramic or in the background of a group shot, it's way different than actively walking around or concealing cameras to get bathing suit photos/video of said 15 year olds and then trying to track them back to their Facebook accounts to put names and identities to your creepshots. Legal does not mean ethical, and legal now doesn't mean it should be legal. Intent is absolutely a psr today the way we decide what should and shouldn't be illegal.
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Offline 2397

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2018, 01:55:45 AM »
Right. There's a difference between being in public and being recorded as part of the public, as well as being a part of a story with a responsible journalist (e.g. not the kind who interviews people escaping traumatic events during or immediately after the event), vs. being recorded as an individual in as much detail as possible so that they'll have as much power over you as possible.

I don't like it that other companies, who provide me no useful services, can monetize information about me. But I've got much bigger concerns than that. Compared to poverty, climate change, and woo-woo non-medicine, the privacy of my phone location doesn't even register.

Mass surveillance and having detailed information about everyone is a tool that the people in power can use to remain in power, promote bogus medical practices, and prevent action on climate change, in addition to just spying on you for their own lesser purposes.

Offline 2397

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2018, 02:27:46 AM »
The only thing they have in common is the use of the word privacy, and even then it has different meanings.

In abortion rights it means freedom from interference from outside parties.

In the information sense it means free from being observed and free from public attention.

You have a right to not be interfered with by the government, according to Roe v. Wade.

But, yes, it would require an additional right for information that you make available to a third party not be kept and used by that third party (along with other information publicly available).  There is no right protecting you from that.

The reason to have privacy is to prevent interference, and prevent someone from using the data against you.

Imagine if churches could have a database of all LGBT individuals, who have been possible to register as such because at some point they dared to walk around in public without concealing that aspect of who they are.

Each time you're walking around in public you can decide how to present yourself. Location to location, or situation to situation (e.g. being alone vs. being with friends), could make a significant difference for you. But if you can be tracked and logged every time you're not far removed from devices that can record, then every situation becomes a situation where you have the least amount of freedom, because the worst possible people could be watching (and then target you when they choose to).

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You can now restrict how that information is shared with other parties, but I don't think you can restrict what someone does with information they gather from you or from public sources.

It's a matter of deciding to. If they're storing the data, the storage can be regulated.

If they're only remembering everything in their own mind, then that would be something that can't be regulated.

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You want to restrict someone else's right to use legally gathered information. I think "what's the harm?" is exactly what the question should be.

And the idea that you criminalize all use of information unless an exception is made is absurd.

I would like to see restrictions on commercial use, public use (tracking someone else and then sharing it, see the example of Google Street View for how to do it without tracking individuals), or private use that is in the territory of stalking.

It wouldn't restrict what the vast majority of people do with information, because they mostly share their own information, or none at all.

Edit: Or your friends' information, and it's easy enough to tell them what you're doing with it and to obtain consent for that specific purpose.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 03:24:36 AM by 2397 »

Offline superdave

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2018, 09:52:10 AM »
I think have to start with what is private and what isn't.

We have a fairly well defined notion of private body parts so any sort of surveillance of those parts, regardless of the method, is a clear cut violation.
We also have pretty well defined notions of health privacy, so I think the same should hold. 

It gets tricky when concerning things like shopping preferences, driving routes, website traffic.  Though I think a good rule of thumb is three fold.
1)  Does this information concern my health, body, or protected class information (race, sexuality, etc)
2)  Is there reasonable notification of the data being shared or collected? 
3)  Is there a reasonable alternative to perform the action I am taking (e.g.  can I shop somewhere else, pay tolls instead of EZPass, use a VPN to hide traffic)
I think if the answer is yes on 1 or no on either of the other two, it's something that the should be regulated.
I can nitpick these to death though.  A computer savvy user might have no difficulty setting up a vpn but a novice might.  NYC is using new cashless tolling where your driving location is tracked via image recognition on your car and plate regardless of whether you own EZpass.  So the regulation would be tricky to set up.

I disavow anyone in the movement involved in any illegal,unethical, sexist, or racist behavior. However, I don't have the energy or time to investigate each person and case, and a lack of individual disavowals for each incident should not be construed as condoning such behavior.

Offline Guillermo

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2018, 10:55:32 AM »
I am fine with any business to tracks me anonymously. It would eventually help their business provide for the products I need (if they use the data correctly). Example: Data shows most people go straight to the center of the mall to pick up a handy cart. Let's place the carts next to the entrances. That sort of thing would help the costumers if done correctly.

Tracking individuals, is, IMO, a violation of privacy without the consent of the individual to elect whether they wish to be tracked or not.
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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2018, 12:03:26 PM »
Ooh, I'm glad to see this conversation picked up

Tracking individuals, is, IMO, a violation of privacy without the consent of the individual to elect whether they wish to be tracked or not.

This is where I kinda wonder where exactly I put my own lines. Like, as long as it stays "Person A" rather than "Mike", but otherwise goes on to demographically describe me in excruciating detail, that's fine.  But as soon as it gets linked to my name or address or email or phone number or Facebook profile it's a problem.  That's sort of where I am, I guess.

But then there's a problem of how easy it eventually gets to go from Person A to Mike as you get more and more "anonymous" data.  Like "Person A drives from this residential neighbourhood to this school and then to this office building and back to that same residential neighbourhood every day (but not via the school, isn't that odd?), and Person A drives to the same ice rink every Sunday, and to Denny's every Tuesday (which is Kids Eat Free night), and the Warhammer store every Thursday and and and".  Pretty soon, that's Mike, not Person A.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2018, 12:08:39 PM »
I am fine with any business to tracks me anonymously. It would eventually help their business provide for the products I need (if they use the data correctly). Example: Data shows most people go straight to the center of the mall to pick up a handy cart. Let's place the carts next to the entrances. That sort of thing would help the costumers if done correctly.

Tracking individuals, is, IMO, a violation of privacy without the consent of the individual to elect whether they wish to be tracked or not.

I think the bolded phrase is a fundamental error. It would help companies try to sell you things they want to sell you. Our system is based on selling you things, and marketing is largely based around manipulating you into buying things, many of which you may not need. Restate it as "would help companies better sell me things at a price that profits them most" to better reflect their actual motivation, and then add "Would better help companies sell other companies my information" and then ask yourself if you still feel that way.
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Offline Guillermo

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2018, 02:29:11 PM »
I am fine with any business to tracks me anonymously. It would eventually help their business provide for the products I need (if they use the data correctly). Example: Data shows most people go straight to the center of the mall to pick up a handy cart. Let's place the carts next to the entrances. That sort of thing would help the costumers if done correctly.

Tracking individuals, is, IMO, a violation of privacy without the consent of the individual to elect whether they wish to be tracked or not.

I think the bolded phrase is a fundamental error. It would help companies try to sell you things they want to sell you. Our system is based on selling you things, and marketing is largely based around manipulating you into buying things, many of which you may not need. Restate it as "would help companies better sell me things at a price that profits them most" to better reflect their actual motivation, and then add "Would better help companies sell other companies my information" and then ask yourself if you still feel that way.

True, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I expect a company would want to maximize their earnings. It's the difference between getting the targeted advertisement on you tube and general advertisement on TV. I get less advertisement than TV and the products might actually appeal to me (whether its a good product or a bad product is irrelevant). I've bought more products influenced by targeted advertisement in the last five years, than the 25 years prior with the standard advertising model.  I do not think this is a bad thing.
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Online The Latinist

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2018, 09:27:16 AM »
I have always had a policy of assuming that unencrypted activity on the Internet had no expectation of privacy. This meant not saying anything in E-mail, for instance, that I would not want to see published on the front page of the newspaper.  And while I post here anonymously, I realize that it would probably not be hard for someone to link my username to my real name.

However, I am disturbed by the increasing efficiency with which data about us is being harvested and leveraged by corporations and governments in ways that I never dreamed of in the beginnings of the Internet. And I am also increasingly of the opinion that we need strong protections for the privacy of, for instance, ISP and Cell Phone provider logs of user activity, requiring that they be maintained securely, not be sold or used for marketing purposes, and that a warrant be required for government search of such records.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline 2397

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2018, 10:42:56 AM »
We need doors with locks, and we need burglary to be a crime that's prosecuted.

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2018, 11:58:51 AM »
There is some discrepancy here between what has become normal and what we should have allowed to become normal if we had enough foresight.

As far as Im concerned, due to the unethical ways in which data get used and the fact that companies need to strike a cost/security balance in deciding how secure from unauthorized parties is secure enough- Any information and data that I do not explicitly consent to is unreasonable.
If it makes it harder for them to make money? I dont care.
If it makes my life more convenient? I dont care.
If you want those 'benefits'? You could just give explicit permission.

Just because things have developed a certain way because of profit, does not mean they should be that way.

Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2018, 12:51:13 PM »
The way I'm leaning is it's one of those issues where each individual instance of observation/recording is fine, but at some point in aggregate it's not fine.  Where there's an indeterminate category shift at some point, the way there is between a single grain of sand and a beach
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Offline 2397

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2018, 04:31:24 PM »
The way I'm leaning is it's one of those issues where each individual instance of observation/recording is fine, but at some point in aggregate it's not fine.  Where there's an indeterminate category shift at some point, the way there is between a single grain of sand and a beach

Right, which is why the data needs to be anonymized at the point of gathering it so that it can't be aggregated that way. No personal IDs, no license plates, etc., and no personal features or characteristics that can be used to identify someone.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 04:34:27 PM by 2397 »

Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2018, 10:49:36 AM »
The way I'm leaning is it's one of those issues where each individual instance of observation/recording is fine, but at some point in aggregate it's not fine.  Where there's an indeterminate category shift at some point, the way there is between a single grain of sand and a beach

Right, which is why the data needs to be anonymized at the point of gathering it so that it can't be aggregated that way. No personal IDs, no license plates, etc., and no personal features or characteristics that can be used to identify someone.

I think the problem is that there's enough processing and enough data out there to make a lot of it un-anonymizable.

It's an example of something different, but with the same general flavour - if you turn Locations off in your Android phone, and do not allow for the tracking of your location in any way (but otherwise use your phone for normal things like a normal person would), someone who knows what they are doing can still pretty much construct a map of exactly where you were and when.  I don't have a link but I definitely read a story about it (good skepticism there, Big Mike).

In the same way, my understanding is that there's enough anonymized data out there about us that you can still re-assemble something for individuals.  "This anonymous person drives from this same residence to this same place of work every weekday", that sort of thing.

The standard "can't be used to identify someone" at some point would preclude the keeping of almost ANY data.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Reasonable Expectations of Privacy
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2018, 11:15:05 AM »
So whats the problem with precluding them from keeping almost any data?
There are people who want certain benefits, those peoples preferences are not contradicted by the need to give explicit permission, while the preferences of someone with a different standard are. So it seems like the best solution is not to set the bar at the level of the most agreeable of us?
The consent to cookies pop ups post GDPR for example have been fucking ridiculous, basically barring anyone from the internet unless they agree to absolutely everything.

These companies and data are already compromised to a disgusting extent by government demands for access, making anyone who ever made a joke about certain topics on twitter a risk of not being able to enter the US.
In the hands of truly authoritarian and facist governments, these tools are a disaster for any ability to organise or dissent.
This is where the dark web and cryptocurrency starts to gain a foothold (as was the last recourse of folks in Egypt) and is the wrong way ahead I think.

 

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