Author Topic: Episode #686  (Read 7773 times)

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Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2018, 12:42:00 PM »
A human with a camera, a hammer and a bag could outdo in a couple of hours everything that all our rovers have accomplished in the last two decades.
Except the human with a camera didn't because they couldn't. As maddeningly unfair as life may be.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2018, 01:38:19 PM »
Cara is a breath of fresh air, a voice of reason, really.  Go girl, as we are wont to say as Kiwis.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2018, 04:27:00 PM »
Cara is a breath of fresh air, a voice of reason, really.  Go girl, as we are wont to say as Kiwis.

Completely agree!
Daniel
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Offline mabell_yah

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2018, 04:59:37 PM »
I wouldn't even consider "knowing the history of an object" unless it was an opt-in power (off by default). Can you imaging trying to sleep on a hotel mattress or use a public toilet? [shudder]

Conversely, the power to talk to the animals would be very interesting indeed for the higher-brained species like whales, dolphins, apes and telephone sanitizers.

Offline MikeHz

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2018, 05:06:39 PM »
Overhead pressing is a perfectly fine exercise. Resistance training is pretty safe compared to other sporting endeavours when comparing injury rates (that's true even if you include the foolishness that is Crossfit!).

I was at the gym actually doing overhead presses when I heard this. Had one set to go, but decided to skip it. However, I've been doing them for many years and have not had a problem.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2018, 08:50:28 PM »
The word for the psychic power of knowing the history of an object is psychometry.

ETA: Fictional. The fictional psychic power.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2018, 11:15:37 PM »
The word for the psychic power of knowing the history of an object is psychometry.

ETA: Fictional. The fictional psychic power.

(: Redundant use of 'fictional' is redundant. :)
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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2018, 05:35:23 AM »
Overhead pressing is a perfectly fine exercise. Resistance training is pretty safe compared to other sporting endeavours when comparing injury rates (that's true even if you include the foolishness that is Crossfit!).

I was at the gym actually doing overhead presses when I heard this. Had one set to go, but decided to skip it. However, I've been doing them for many years and have not had a problem.

I always include OHP to failure in my workout.  A very functional exercise if done correctly.
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2018, 04:37:40 PM »
Cara is spot-on regarding the cockamamy idea of a Mars colony.


She's half-right.  It would be expensive. It would be dangerous. It would soon be "old-hat" but

we should do it.

While robotics have a place and will be cool, the technology is generations away from being able to do as well as humans.

When the English colonized Jamestown, or the Spanish colonized Central and South America, for all but the wealthiest, it was a one-way trip.

If you become a colonist on Mars, the price you pay is never returning to Earth. (May also be true for the moon, but maybe not).

Keep in mind when the British landed at Jamestown (the second time, everyone died the first time) they knew it was dangerous, but didn't know much else. They didn't know if the local population was a potential threat; they didn't know if they would be able to grow crops and raise animals needed to survive; they didn't know how harsh the winters would be; etc.

We know much more about Mars than they knew about Plymouth Rock. There is very little unknown, but what we do know is pretty harsh.

We know exactly what would be needed to survive, and, ideally, we'd commit the resources to make it happen before we launch the first colonizing mission.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2018, 07:49:04 PM »
<...snip...>
We know much more about Mars than they knew about Plymouth Rock. ...

Yep. We know you cannot breathe the air, because effectively there is no air. We know you cannot grow crops because the soil is laced with perchlorates. We know you cannot go above ground for more than very brief periods because of cosmic rays. The Jamestown colonists never imagined a place where you could not grow crops or breath the air or where you'd have to live underground.

We know exactly what would be needed to survive,

Continual re-supply from Earth, in perpetuity...

... and, ideally, we'd commit the resources to make it happen before we launch the first colonizing mission.

Would we? NASA probably would, but NASA won't attempt the ridiculous project of establishing a permanent colony. The Mars One project plans to re-supply the colonists in perpetuity, financed with a reality TV show. How long do you think that will last? A permanent colony is going to be a private project, with no real accountability. The colonists will be trusting a private corporation, run by people whose first priority and whose legal fiduciary responsibility is to their stockholders, not to the colonists. The colonists will probably have to sign a waiver that says they understand and accept that the company might not be able to supply them.

And as I've noted before, with re-supply being between nine months to well over a year away depending on the orbital cycles, any urgent medical needs not covered by what limited supplies are on hand will mean death. Do you know how many medicines are in a pharmacy? They're just not going to be able to keep a supply of everything on hand. Illnesses that would be easy to cure on Earth will be fatal on Mars. Not to mention heavy diagnostic equipment that every hospital in every industrial country has on hand will be completely absent on Mars. Nobody who has given this any real thought and who is not suicidal would volunteer. But a lot of people have a sci-fi vision of a space colony and no idea what it would really be like. You could certainly find volunteers, but not informed ones.

A round-trip mission is another matter. We don't yet have the technology to keep people alive, or to land safely to a reasonable degree of certainty, but at least they'd have a hope of returning.
Daniel
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2018, 09:11:52 PM »
<...snip...>
We know much more about Mars than they knew about Plymouth Rock. ...

Yep. We know you cannot breathe the air, because effectively there is no air. We know you cannot grow crops because the soil is laced with perchlorates. We know you cannot go above ground for more than very brief periods because of cosmic rays. The Jamestown colonists never imagined a place where you could not grow crops or breath the air or where you'd have to live underground.

Yea, they probably didn't imagine a place where they would all freeze to death or die from malnutrition or starvation within a couple years, either.

The point is we don't have to imagine any of that. We know full well going in what to expect, and can plan for it.


Quote
We know exactly what would be needed to survive,

Continual re-supply from Earth, in perpetuity...

That would not work. Any colony would have to be sustainable and self-sufficient.  That probably means nuclear reactors to generate electricity and heat from spent fuel. By then fusion may be a possibility. (I don't see a sustainable Mars colony in our lifetimes, at least not yours or mine).

Quote
... and, ideally, we'd commit the resources to make it happen before we launch the first colonizing mission.

Would we? NASA probably would, but NASA won't attempt the ridiculous project of establishing a permanent colony.
What?

Either way, NASA will do whatever Congress and the President tell them to do.

Quote
The Mars One project plans to re-supply the colonists in perpetuity, financed with a reality TV show. How long do you think that will last? A permanent colony is going to be a private project, with no real accountability. The colonists will be trusting a private corporation, run by people whose first priority and whose legal fiduciary responsibility is to their stockholders, not to the colonists. The colonists will probably have to sign a waiver that says they understand and accept that the company might not be able to supply them.

I don't think that show is ready for prime time.
Quote

And as I've noted before, with re-supply being between nine months to well over a year away depending on the orbital cycles, any urgent medical needs not covered by what limited supplies are on hand will mean death.

Well, a significant amount of supplies can be "parked" in orbit. But yes, if there is a medical emergency that is not planned for it would mean death. (In Jamestown, a simple infection or a broken bone could have been a death sentence)

Colonizing isn't easy and it's not safe. Whether it's Mars in the 22nd Century or Jamestown in the 17th.


Quote

Do you know how many medicines are in a pharmacy? They're just not going to be able to keep a supply of everything on hand. Illnesses that would be easy to cure on Earth will be fatal on Mars. Not to mention heavy diagnostic equipment that every hospital in every industrial country has on hand will be completely absent on Mars. Nobody who has given this any real thought and who is not suicidal would volunteer. But a lot of people have a sci-fi vision of a space colony and no idea what it would really be like. You could certainly find volunteers, but not informed ones.

Those luxuries (and the longer lives that come with them) would not be available.
Quote
A round-trip mission is another matter. We don't yet have the technology to keep people alive, or to land safely to a reasonable degree of certainty, but at least they'd have a hope of returning.

Then it wouldn't be a colony.

The amount of resources required for a round trip to Mars is probably significantly less than a small self-sustaining colony.

Building a rocket that can reach a distant planet, land safely, then lift off again and reach orbit is no small feat.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2018, 03:00:48 AM »
Cara is spot-on regarding the cockamamy idea of a Mars colony.


She's half-right.  It would be expensive. It would be dangerous. It would soon be "old-hat" but

we should do it.

While robotics have a place and will be cool, the technology is generations away from being able to do as well as humans.

When the English colonized Jamestown, or the Spanish colonized Central and South America, for all but the wealthiest, it was a one-way trip.

If you become a colonist on Mars, the price you pay is never returning to Earth. (May also be true for the moon, but maybe not).

Keep in mind when the British landed at Jamestown (the second time, everyone died the first time) they knew it was dangerous, but didn't know much else. They didn't know if the local population was a potential threat; they didn't know if they would be able to grow crops and raise animals needed to survive; they didn't know how harsh the winters would be; etc.

We know much more about Mars than they knew about Plymouth Rock. There is very little unknown, but what we do know is pretty harsh.

We know exactly what would be needed to survive, and, ideally, we'd commit the resources to make it happen before we launch the first colonizing mission.

There were very good reasons for European colonisation of overseas territories.  It was in the expectation that it would ‘pay’, that it would be profitable.  There was a strong expectation that overseas colonies wouldn’t be a bottomless bucket for resources, and would actually be a profitable source for resources, such as tree trunks for ship masts.

A colony on Mars would never be economic.  There’s nothing on Mars that couldn’t be obtained elsewhere at a lower price.  Even if there were gold ingots lying around on the surface of Mars waiting to be picked up and shipped back to Earth it wouldn’t pay.
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Offline DamoET

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2018, 08:40:31 AM »

Great episode guys, very enjoyable.  Nice work of SOF Bob!

  Woohoo, I have ordered my signed copy!!  :)  I want my golden ticket.

  Robin Hobb's "Far see'er" trilogy has something very similar to seeing/experiencing the history of a object by touching, very spooky, but very cool.

  As for Bob's rotator cuff, I snapped a tendon in mine a few years back, and instantly my bicep became visually messed up.  Probably 25% loss of strength, but still functional and without pain.


Damien


« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 04:20:37 AM by DamoET »
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2018, 09:09:59 AM »
<...snip...>
We know much more about Mars than they knew about Plymouth Rock. ...

Yep. We know you cannot breathe the air, because effectively there is no air. We know you cannot grow crops because the soil is laced with perchlorates. We know you cannot go above ground for more than very brief periods because of cosmic rays. The Jamestown colonists never imagined a place where you could not grow crops or breath the air or where you'd have to live underground.

Yea, they probably didn't imagine a place where they would all freeze to death or die from malnutrition or starvation within a couple years, either.

The point is we don't have to imagine any of that. We know full well going in what to expect, and can plan for it.

... By telling them they might as well kiss their ass goodbuy before they even leave.


Quote
We know exactly what would be needed to survive,

Continual re-supply from Earth, in perpetuity...

That would not work.

Correct. That's what I've been saying.

Quote
... and, ideally, we'd commit the resources to make it happen before we launch the first colonizing mission.

Would we? NASA probably would, but NASA won't attempt the ridiculous project of establishing a permanent colony.
What?

Either way, NASA will do whatever Congress and the President tell them to do.

Quote
The Mars One project plans to re-supply the colonists in perpetuity, financed with a reality TV show. How long do you think that will last? A permanent colony is going to be a private project, with no real accountability. The colonists will be trusting a private corporation, run by people whose first priority and whose legal fiduciary responsibility is to their stockholders, not to the colonists. The colonists will probably have to sign a waiver that says they understand and accept that the company might not be able to supply them.

I don't think that show is ready for prime time.

Oh, it's ready for prime time. It would be a big hit. For a year. Maybe two. Then people will get bored, the money will dry up, the re-supply will stop, and the colonists will all die.


Quote

And as I've noted before, with re-supply being between nine months to well over a year away depending on the orbital cycles, any urgent medical needs not covered by what limited supplies are on hand will mean death.

Well, a significant amount of supplies can be "parked" in orbit. But yes, if there is a medical emergency that is not planned for it would mean death. (In Jamestown, a simple infection or a broken bone could have been a death sentence)

Colonizing isn't easy and it's not safe. Whether it's Mars in the 22nd Century or Jamestown in the 17th.

Effectively, the colonists will be traveling back, not to the 17th century, but to the stone age. That is, if there were no atmosphere or magnetosphere in the stone age.




Quote

Do you know how many medicines are in a pharmacy? They're just not going to be able to keep a supply of everything on hand. Illnesses that would be easy to cure on Earth will be fatal on Mars. Not to mention heavy diagnostic equipment that every hospital in every industrial country has on hand will be completely absent on Mars. Nobody who has given this any real thought and who is not suicidal would volunteer. But a lot of people have a sci-fi vision of a space colony and no idea what it would really be like. You could certainly find volunteers, but not informed ones.

Those luxuries (and the longer lives that come with them) would not be available.

Exactly. They'd be giving up the "luxury" of living past about the age of 30.

William Sommerset Maugham wrote a short story about a guy who was sick of the rat race and figured out that if he sold everything and left his wife and kids he could buy an annuity sufficient to sustain him for ten years. He sold everything, left his family, and went to Tahiti with the plan that when the annuity ran out he'd kill himself. He wanted this so badly he figured ten years in Tahiti was better than a natural lifespan at home. But when the money ran out he didn't have the courage to kill himself. He started borrowing, then begging, then drinking, and ended up dying miserably, homeless and friendless.

My point is that you could find plenty of people who would accept a vastly-shortened life expectancy in order to be in the first group to go to Mars, but when push comes to shove and they're facing a miserable and painful death at the age of 30, from some cause that would be cured by a poke in the arm if they were on Earth, they'll curse the people who offered them the opportunity to leave the oxygen-rich, magnetosphere-protected Earth for the utter desolation of a barren and uninhabitable hell-hole.
Daniel
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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2018, 10:38:35 AM »
There are no short term benefits of going to Mars, other than the entertainment value, gaining some knowledge and maybe developing technology that can have other uses.

Long term, we have to learn how live outside of this planet, or figure out how to make life possible outside of the Goldilock's zone/era. We have to start somewhere. Maybe spend some decades to build a Mars base with robots, and have a slightly more feasible Moon colony first.

I should listen to this episode to comment on it directly.