Author Topic: Episode #686  (Read 7772 times)

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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2018, 11:19:33 AM »
<snip>
Nobody who has given this any real thought and who is not suicidal would volunteer. But a lot of people have a sci-fi vision of a space colony and no idea what it would really be like. You could certainly find volunteers, but not informed ones.

Many of your arguments about exploring the moon and mars are well thought out and based on facts. On this point you repeatedly make a fallacious argument from ignorance.

Some humans are explorers by their nature. They willingly and knowingly take risks I can not not imagine taking. I do not have that temperament.1 Neither do you, I'd wager. The problem here is that it appears you start from "I can't imagine doing X because of my nature" and extrapolate that "people who do X by nature are insane, stupid, ignorant, or some combination of these." Some may be, but the generalization is unfair. I think playing sports is a solid analogy here, so...

Let X = Competitive Sports.

One of my daughter's moms is an athlete. She does not feel alive unless she is in competition with others to prove physical prowess and mental strength. "Does not feel alive" is not a metaphor. When her knee went out and she couldn't play footie anymore she said, "I felt dead inside." She took up golf soon after, and in two years she became one of the best golfers in the city. Physical competition is part of her nature, and she requires it to be a whole person.

I'm not into competitive sports at all. I don't play them or watch them. I don't care about who wins. There are things I absolutely need to feel alive, but sports are not among them. My inability to understand her need to compete is irrelevant to her need to compete. It is part of who she is.

Now, let X = Exploration.

There are people who are intelligent, well informed, and sound of mind and body who need to explore to feel alive. It is fallacious to claim that your inability to comprehend their motivations and their value systems is their idiocy, insanity, or ignorance.

..a miserable and painful death at the age of 30...

While Martian colonists may be at a much higher risk of death than Terrans, 'death at 30' and 'we only use 10% of our brains' have similar accuracy.

Quote
Longevity Among Hunter‐ Gatherers: A Cross‐Cultural Examination (PDF)

Michael Gurven, Hillard Kaplan
First published: 29 May 2007 https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1728-4457.2007.00171.x Cited by: 176

Abstract
Post‐reproductive longevity is a robust feature of human life and not only a recent phenomenon caused by improvements in sanitation, public health, and medical advances. We argue for an adaptive life span of 68‐78 years for modern Homo sapiens based on our analysis of mortality profiles obtained from small‐scale hunter‐gatherer and horticultural populations from around the world. We compare patterns of survivorship across the life span, rates of senescence, modal ages at adult death, and causes of death. We attempt to reconcile our results with those derived from paleodemographic studies that characterize prehistoric human lives as “nasty, brutish, and short,” and with observations of recent acculturation among contemporary subsistence populations. We integrate information on age‐specific dependency and resource production to help explain the adaptive utility of longevity in humans from an evolutionary perspective.

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1I was today years old when I learned that temperament has an A in the middle of it. Huh.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2018, 01:48:35 PM »
... Long term, we have to learn how live outside of this planet, or figure out how to make life possible outside of the Goldilock's zone/era. ...

Why do we "need" to learn to live outside of this planet? So that a few humans can die on Mars? Because our species is so special that there's some imperative to keep it going forever? (A biological impossibility, BTW.) Or so that when we finally exterminate ourselves here on Earth there will be a colony or colonies elsewhere to continue the endeavor at self-extermination? Or so that, on the off chance that there are other civilizations within our reach we can exterminate them?

Cancer is when one/some of the body's cells multiplies out of control and then spreads until it kills the individual. The human race is a cancer on the body of the planet. Until we have figured out how to stop killing our planet, our spread to other planets would simply be a further metastasis of the cancer that is us.

@brilligtove: There are places on the Earth that we do not colonize because we can't: The conditions are too severe. We visit them occasionally, or maybe we even have research stations with rotating staff and continual re-supply. Antarctica and the deep sea floor come to mind. Mars is far more harsh and unimaginably more difficult to resupply. I could see NASA sending people there one day, for the public relations of it, and bringing them back. I would vote against it because I think the money could be better spent elsewhere. But a self-sustaining colony on Mars is simply not feasible.

And right now, we don't even know how to get people to Mars alive. I contend (opinion here) that developing that technology, if it's possible at all, would be a criminally irresponsible waste of resources. Yes, there would be spin-offs, but all research has spin-offs, and money spent trying to do something that might not even be possible could have been spent instead on solving the problems of how to keep our own planet livable, with all the spin-offs that would bring.
Daniel
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2018, 02:13:51 PM »
Fair enough if you're not concerned with life going on past the natural conditions that favor it. In a way I should agree with that, because I don't think it's necessary to have children. I don't think it's necessary to create life for the purpose of having it exist.

But given the life that does exist, now and later, I think we should work towards having the best possible conditions for it. I don't see why we would set a date for when we should stop doing that. Whether because of runaway climate change in the near future, or the aging Sun over the next billion years, Earth will become inhospitable to humans and anything like humans. We, they, need to be doing something more than we're doing now for life to be able to thrive.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2018, 02:22:44 PM »
... Long term, we have to learn how live outside of this planet, or figure out how to make life possible outside of the Goldilock's zone/era. ...

Why do we "need" to learn to live outside of this planet? 

Because we are a species and that's what our species needs to do.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2018, 02:29:41 PM »
... Long term, we have to learn how live outside of this planet, or figure out how to make life possible outside of the Goldilock's zone/era. ...

Why do we "need" to learn to live outside of this planet? 

Because we are a species and that's what our species needs to do.

Why do we need, as a species, to learn to live outside of this planet? 
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2018, 03:33:54 PM »
... Long term, we have to learn how live outside of this planet, or figure out how to make life possible outside of the Goldilock's zone/era. ...

Why do we "need" to learn to live outside of this planet? 

Because we are a species and that's what our species needs to do.

Why do we need, as a species, to learn to live outside of this planet?

Why do we as need to eat and breathe? Why do we as a species need to reproduce? Why did we as a species need to spread from Africa? Why did we need to settle the New World?

Also, why not?
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2018, 04:12:25 PM »
... given the life that does exist, now and later, I think we should work towards having the best possible conditions for it.

And the best way to do that, probably the only realistic way to do that, is to stop destroying the only planet in our solar system capable of supporting us.

... Whether because of runaway climate change in the near future, or the aging Sun over the next billion years, Earth will become inhospitable to humans and anything like humans.

No matter what we do, there will be no humans in a billion years. There will probably be no humans in a million years. If we don't go extinct we'll evolve into something completely unrecognizable.

And the best way to insure that life goes on until the sun does go nova and envelopes the Earth, is to phase ourselves out, because if the Earth does become uninhabitable it's just about a certainty it will be because humans ruined it. So if you want the human race to continue, forget it, it ain't gonna happen, and if you want life to continue, the best hope for that is for us to stop ruining this planet.

If you're serious about "saving" either the human race or life in general, then the money that some people want to invest in a Mars colony would be better spent figuring out how not to ruin the Earth, and while you're at it, figure out how to stop people from being such fucking bigoted religious morons and killing each other for opening their eggs at the wrong end.
Daniel
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2018, 05:03:28 PM »
Sure, we should be spending some trillions of USD on capturing all the excess greenhouse gasses. I don't think doing that depends on whether we try to go to Mars or not.

The EPA is actively being killed, because of corporate influences wanting to stop having to worry about regulations. The current US government is aiming to do as little as possible to protect the environment, and it's nothing to do with saving the public money.

With a sensible government that cared about the future and the public, and far greater investment in the things that are necessary, we could see how much is left over, or possible to spend on projects that might not have immediate ROI, but still have great potential.

If you want to put the cost of a Mars mission up against other more useful things, there are plenty of useless things to compare it to as well. Like how about not starting trade wars so that you don't have add $12 billion in subsidies to an already heavily subsidized agricultural industry? Which is nothing compared to the arms industry, which does provide technology, but it also involves manufacturing things just to manufacture them and using up budgets.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 05:12:41 PM by 2397 »

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2018, 07:23:40 PM »
... Long term, we have to learn how live outside of this planet, or figure out how to make life possible outside of the Goldilock's zone/era. ...

Why do we "need" to learn to live outside of this planet? 

Because we are a species and that's what our species needs to do.

Why do we need, as a species, to learn to live outside of this planet?

Why do we as need to eat and breathe? Why do we as a species need to reproduce? Why did we as a species need to spread from Africa? Why did we need to settle the New World?

Also, why not?

There’s nothing on Mars that we ‘need’.  And the question isn’t ‘why not?’  It’s ‘why?’
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2018, 08:26:29 PM »
Look. Regardless of whatever benefits it might have, regardless of whether robots might do it better, people are going to go to Mars. And they're going to do it because they want to.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2018, 09:47:47 PM »
Look. Regardless of whatever benefits it might have, regardless of whether robots might do it better, people are going to go to Mars. And they're going to do it because they want to.

If ‘people want to’ go to Mars, then let them pay for it.  Governments and their taxpayers ought not to be funding it.  There’s absolutely no return on the expenditure, not even adding to knowledge, as with pure science research, including the Large Hadron Collider.

Actually though, if Donald Trump wanted to go to Mars, I’d quite happily contribute financially.  Perhaps we can tell him that Mars desperately needs a Trump Tower?
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2018, 09:59:24 PM »
Look. Regardless of whatever benefits it might have, regardless of whether robots might do it better, people are going to go to Mars. And they're going to do it because they want to.

I actually doubt it. They'll spend a lot of money on the project. But in the end I don't think they'll solve the life support problems. Especially cosmic rays and achieving a better than 50% survival rate for landings.
Daniel
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2018, 01:13:10 AM »
Look. Regardless of whatever benefits it might have, regardless of whether robots might do it better, people are going to go to Mars. And they're going to do it because they want to.

I actually doubt it. They'll spend a lot of money on the project. But in the end I don't think they'll solve the life support problems. Especially cosmic rays and achieving a better than 50% survival rate for landings.

Life support for extended periods is not impossible or even infeasible. Subs spend months underwater. They electrolyse water to get O2. A nuclear powered spaceship would have enough power to crack CO2 to produce O2. The basic chemstry is not that hard.
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Offline Tim44

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2018, 09:11:24 AM »
Cara may have been having a moment, but her "meh" attitude on science exploration and at the same time trying to control the conversation direction was a bad combination.  Maybe try to leave her out of future science exploration discussions if that is her norm.  Science exploration is not about trying to impress the "meh" generation.
I know on science or fiction she always complains about space and universe questions.  Evidence points to that she is not a fan of the subject.
With her logic that the "meh" population needs to be impressed, why study anything?

Offline Tim44

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2018, 09:28:53 AM »
I may be greedy, but I want to see more exploration of mars in our lifetime and human colonization can perform certain studies on it exponentially quicker than some land rovers.  Let the excited adventurers explore it and don't try to hold them back with your PC training wheels.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 09:32:45 AM by Tim44 »

 

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