Author Topic: Episode #686  (Read 4617 times)

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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #120 on: September 12, 2018, 12:55:55 PM »
Arth: Yes, I advocate extinction, but by a voluntary, gradual process, not by killing anyone. Just by a cessation of reproduction.

Yes, I understand the distinction. I apologise if I gave you the impression that I thought you were advocating killing people.

I think that the main problem with settling and terraforming Mars is the gravity. Would the gravity of Mars be sufficient to keep an atmosphere? I think any atmosphere we create on Mars would be more than likely just to leak away. Venus would be easier if we could somehow reduce the runaway greenhouse effect, but I think extraterrestrial settlements are likely to always be in sealed environments, at least until we can somehow leave the Solar system.

Venus is still very problematic due to its long days. A Venusian day is 243 Earth days, which would be very hard for Earth-evolved life to adapt to. A Martian day is slightly less than 25 hours. Humans and other animals and plants from Earth could adapt to the length of a day and night on terraformed Mars, which would be very hard on Venus. Perhaps the plants and animals could also adapt to the Martian year, almost twice as long as that of Earth.

If Venus could be made to rotate faster, then it would help. But to me at least that sounds like something very hard to pull off.

The length of the day does not matter on Mars because you'd be living underground. The length of the day does not matter on Venus because you'd be floating in a balloon city deep within the cloud cover and circling the planet with the wind.

"Terraformed" anything is nonsense and even the people who think it could be possible speak in terms of hundreds of thousands of years in the future, by which time the residents of a colony would have evolved into something we would not even recognize as primates, much less as humans, so human-adapted day length is moot.
Daniel
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Online Alex Simmons

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #121 on: September 12, 2018, 05:47:45 PM »
If Venus could be made to rotate faster, then it would help. But to me at least that sounds like something very hard to pull off.
Very hard is kind of an understatement.

It would require adding approximately 1.88 x 10^29 J of rotational kinetic energy to the planet.

That's equivalent to the total energy released by 900,000,000,000 of the largest nuclear bombs ever detonated on Earth. Or a little over 8 minutes of the Sun's entire nuclear energy production (the Sun fuses 600 megatonnes of hydrogen into helium per second).

And that's assuming you can direct all that energy solely into increasing planetary rotation rate.


Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #122 on: September 12, 2018, 06:22:46 PM »
"Terraformed" anything is nonsense and even the people who think it could be possible speak in terms of hundreds of thousands of years in the future, by which time the residents of a colony would have evolved into something we would not even recognize as primates, much less as humans, so human-adapted day length is moot.

We're terraforming our own planet right now. It's just that we're doing it in a non-optimal direction.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #123 on: September 12, 2018, 06:29:23 PM »
If Venus could be made to rotate faster, then it would help. But to me at least that sounds like something very hard to pull off.
Very hard is kind of an understatement.

It would require adding approximately 1.88 x 10^29 J of rotational kinetic energy to the planet.

That's equivalent to the total energy released by 900,000,000,000 of the largest nuclear bombs ever detonated on Earth. Or a little over 8 minutes of the Sun's entire nuclear energy production (the Sun fuses 600 megatonnes of hydrogen into helium per second).

And that's assuming you can direct all that energy solely into increasing planetary rotation rate.

Well you wouldn't have to do it all at once!

Seriously, this would probably require something along the line of crashing an asteroid into it with sufficient mass and velocity at just the right angle.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #124 on: September 12, 2018, 06:48:17 PM »
If Venus could be made to rotate faster, then it would help. But to me at least that sounds like something very hard to pull off.
Very hard is kind of an understatement.

It would require adding approximately 1.88 x 10^29 J of rotational kinetic energy to the planet.

That's equivalent to the total energy released by 900,000,000,000 of the largest nuclear bombs ever detonated on Earth. Or a little over 8 minutes of the Sun's entire nuclear energy production (the Sun fuses 600 megatonnes of hydrogen into helium per second).

And that's assuming you can direct all that energy solely into increasing planetary rotation rate.

Well you wouldn't have to do it all at once!

Seriously, this would probably require something along the line of crashing an asteroid into it with sufficient mass and velocity at just the right angle.

I don't think changing the rotation rate of a Venus-sized planet is a practical proposition with any kind of technology that we can realistically imagine. I think it would probably require a level of technology that is sufficiently advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic.

I'm pretty sure we could adapt to Venus' longer days. After all, artificial lighting is a thing.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #125 on: September 12, 2018, 07:29:44 PM »
"Terraformed" anything is nonsense and even the people who think it could be possible speak in terms of hundreds of thousands of years in the future, by which time the residents of a colony would have evolved into something we would not even recognize as primates, much less as humans, so human-adapted day length is moot.

We're terraforming our own planet right now. It's just that we're doing it in a non-optimal direction.

Actually, we are un-terraforming the Earth, which is fairly easy to do when you have seven and a half billion people working at it. Going the other way is another matter entirely.
Daniel
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-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #126 on: September 12, 2018, 07:42:17 PM »
"Terraformed" anything is nonsense and even the people who think it could be possible speak in terms of hundreds of thousands of years in the future, by which time the residents of a colony would have evolved into something we would not even recognize as primates, much less as humans, so human-adapted day length is moot.

We're terraforming our own planet right now. It's just that we're doing it in a non-optimal direction.

Actually, we are un-terraforming the Earth, which is fairly easy to do when you have seven and a half billion people working at it. Going the other way is another matter entirely.

Un-terraforming is like de-evolving. The other difference is that on Earth, we are not making a concerted effort to do it deliberately. It's just happening as a byproduct of our activities. However, it does serve as an example that climate can be changed by human activity and therefore it isn't too much of a stretch to think that if we wanted to, we could deliberately alter the climate of another planet to make it more friendly to us.
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Offline Billzbub

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #127 on: September 13, 2018, 11:06:39 AM »
We're terraforming our own planet right now. It's just that we're doing it in a non-optimal direction.

Unless you are a lizard man.
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Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #128 on: September 13, 2018, 02:37:27 PM »
However, it does serve as an example that climate can be changed by human activity and therefore it isn't too much of a stretch to think that if we wanted to, we could deliberately alter the climate of another planet to make it more friendly to us.
Easier to muck up a Swiss watch than to build one.

Offline 2397

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #129 on: September 13, 2018, 05:29:15 PM »
The good news is we know how to get out of an ice age.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #130 on: September 13, 2018, 05:59:57 PM »
However, it does serve as an example that climate can be changed by human activity and therefore it isn't too much of a stretch to think that if we wanted to, we could deliberately alter the climate of another planet to make it more friendly to us.
Easier to muck up a Swiss watch than to build one.

True, especially if you don't know what you're doing. But if you study hard and are extremely careful, you can still build the watch.
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Offline Sci-Borg

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #131 on: September 15, 2018, 01:11:56 PM »
"Don't do overhead presses... don't go past the T" -What is your source?

I have been lifting my entire adult life and about six years into lifting I encountered tweaks in my shoulders from overhead presses so I stopped doing them. Later I read "Supple Leopard" by Dr. Kelly Starrett--which has a 4.4 rating on Goodreads.com and a 5-star rating on Amazon. It reads like a college textbook on exercise science and goes into detail of what good form looks like--in ways I've never seen before. It has now been a year straight of doing HEAVY overhead presses and my shoulders feel incredibly healthy with no red flags of pain.

Offline Sci-Borg

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #132 on: September 15, 2018, 01:15:07 PM »
Overhead pressing is a perfectly fine exercise. Resistance training is pretty safe compared to other sporting endeavours when comparing injury rates (that's true even if you include the foolishness that is Crossfit!).

I was at the gym actually doing overhead presses when I heard this. Had one set to go, but decided to skip it. However, I've been doing them for many years and have not had a problem.


"Don't do overhead presses... don't go past the T" -What is your source?

I have been lifting my entire adult life and about six years into lifting I encountered tweaks in my shoulders from overhead presses so I stopped doing them. Later I read "Supple Leopard" by Dr. Kelly Starrett--which has a 4.4 rating on Goodreads.com and a 5-star rating on Amazon. It reads like a college textbook on exercise science and goes into detail of what good form looks like--in ways I've never seen before. It has now been a year straight of doing HEAVY overhead presses and my shoulders feel incredibly healthy with no red flags of pain.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #133 on: September 16, 2018, 05:41:32 AM »
"Don't do overhead presses... don't go past the T" -What is your source?

I have been lifting my entire adult life and about six years into lifting I encountered tweaks in my shoulders from overhead presses so I stopped doing them. Later I read "Supple Leopard" by Dr. Kelly Starrett--which has a 4.4 rating on Goodreads.com and a 5-star rating on Amazon. It reads like a college textbook on exercise science and goes into detail of what good form looks like--in ways I've never seen before. It has now been a year straight of doing HEAVY overhead presses and my shoulders feel incredibly healthy with no red flags of pain.

I've thought about getting this book.
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Episode #686
« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2018, 01:31:41 PM »
Arth: Yes, I advocate extinction, but by a voluntary, gradual process, not by killing anyone. Just by a cessation of reproduction.

Yes, I understand the distinction. I apologise if I gave you the impression that I thought you were advocating killing people.

I think that the main problem with settling and terraforming Mars is the gravity. Would the gravity of Mars be sufficient to keep an atmosphere? I think any atmosphere we create on Mars would be more than likely just to leak away. Venus would be easier if we could somehow reduce the runaway greenhouse effect, but I think extraterrestrial settlements are likely to always be in sealed environments, at least until we can somehow leave the Solar system.

Venus is still very problematic due to its long days. A Venusian day is 243 Earth days, which would be very hard for Earth-evolved life to adapt to. A Martian day is slightly less than 25 hours. Humans and other animals and plants from Earth could adapt to the length of a day and night on terraformed Mars, which would be very hard on Venus. Perhaps the plants and animals could also adapt to the Martian year, almost twice as long as that of Earth.

If Venus could be made to rotate faster, then it would help. But to me at least that sounds like something very hard to pull off.

The length of the day does not matter on Mars because you'd be living underground. The length of the day does not matter on Venus because you'd be floating in a balloon city deep within the cloud cover and circling the planet with the wind.

"Terraformed" anything is nonsense and even the people who think it could be possible speak in terms of hundreds of thousands of years in the future, by which time the residents of a colony would have evolved into something we would not even recognize as primates, much less as humans, so human-adapted day length is moot.

If you have to live in the underground of Mars, or in the clouds of Venus, then the planets are not terraformed. At least not as I understand the definition of it.

And as far as I know, "terraforming" is an established concept. Your opposition to it does not change that.

 

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