Author Topic: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)  (Read 5121 times)

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Online arthwollipot

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2018, 07:49:52 PM »
Lemon meringue pie.

My mum makes a fantastic lemon meringue tart, using lemons from my dad's garden.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2018, 08:23:15 PM »
Are meat pies good?  Whenever I hear about them, I think they must be good, but have never encountered one in the wild.

They vary greatly in quality. The cheaper ones tend to have bits of fat and gristle that make them less than pleasant. The good ones are to die for. They're the traditional fare at footy matches. Make sure you have them with sauce.

by sauce do you mean HP?

We have a new pie shop called Panbury that claims to have Australian, British and South African pies, I cant say if they are authentic but they are all very good. They dont have "sauce" but I read that in England they use HP sauce so I bought some and I liked it on my pie.

Its funny how we have so called British and Irish pubs but they typically serve the same crap as other bars then add fish and chips (usually frys) and Shepards pie (usually cottage pie) or is that a tart? It does not have a top crust.
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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2018, 08:59:15 PM »
Are meat pies good?  Whenever I hear about them, I think they must be good, but have never encountered one in the wild.

They vary greatly in quality. The cheaper ones tend to have bits of fat and gristle that make them less than pleasant. The good ones are to die for. They're the traditional fare at footy matches. Make sure you have them with sauce.

by sauce do you mean HP?

Tomato sauce is traditional, which is the Aussie default when the type of sauce is unspecified. Tomato sauce is like American ketchup but without as much sugar.

We have a new pie shop called Panbury that claims to have Australian, British and South African pies, I cant say if they are authentic but they are all very good. They dont have "sauce" but I read that in England they use HP sauce so I bought some and I liked it on my pie.

If it doesn't offer sauce on your pie, it's not authentically Australian. HP sauce is available here, but it's not as popular as it is in the UK.

Its funny how we have so called British and Irish pubs but they typically serve the same crap as other bars then add fish and chips (usually frys) and Shepards pie (usually cottage pie) or is that a tart? It does not have a top crust.

Like Chicago pizza, I give a pass to shepherd's and cottage pie. The potato on top is a very acceptable substitute for a top crust.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2018, 09:55:19 PM »
A pie is a sweet or savory dish with a crust and a filling. The sides of a pie dish or pan are slopedIt can have a just a bottom, just a top, or both a bottom and a top crust. A pie crust is traditionally made of flour, salt, cold water, and lard (or shortening) but many pie crust recipes use a combination of fats such as butter, lard, or vegetable shortening, or just butter. The goal is a crisp, flaky crust. Pies are served straight from the dish in which they were baked.

A tart is a sweet or savory dish with shallow sides and only a bottom crust. Tart crusts are usually made from pastry dough: traditionally flour, unsalted butter, cold water, and sometimes sugar. The goal is a firm, crumbly crust. Tarts are baked in a pan with a removable bottom, or in pastry ring on top of a baking sheet so that it can be unmolded before serving.
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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2018, 10:59:49 PM »
Dean Martin is not wrong, Pizza is pie  :P



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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2018, 11:02:41 PM »
A pie is a sweet or savory dish with a crust and a filling. The sides of a pie dish or pan are slopedIt can have a just a bottom, just a top, or both a bottom and a top crust. A pie crust is traditionally made of flour, salt, cold water, and lard (or shortening) but many pie crust recipes use a combination of fats such as butter, lard, or vegetable shortening, or just butter. The goal is a crisp, flaky crust. Pies are served straight from the dish in which they were baked.

A tart is a sweet or savory dish with shallow sides and only a bottom crust. Tart crusts are usually made from pastry dough: traditionally flour, unsalted butter, cold water, and sometimes sugar. The goal is a firm, crumbly crust. Tarts are baked in a pan with a removable bottom, or in pastry ring on top of a baking sheet so that it can be unmolded before serving.

That's one opinion.  ;D
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2018, 11:46:35 PM »
I can't get on board with calling a pizza a "pie". It's not a pie. A pie has height, and it has a pastry crust on top. If it has height, but no pastry crust on top, then it's a tart. Chicago-style pizza could therefore be considered a tart, but a regular pizza needs to be more or less flat. It is cooked on a flat pan, not in a pie tin.

This is my opinion, of course - see my recent apology for seeming to proscribe language usage based on my personal opinions. A pizza is flat, with no crust on top - I make an exception for Chicago-style - and is therefore not a pie.
What about a key-lime pie, or a lemon pie, or any of the other types of pie with no upper crust? Are they tarts?

What if you just do a kind of a dough lattice as an upper crust, covering less surface? Is there a percentage of coverage that is required before you can call your lattice-covered cherry pie a pie?

What about a Tarte Tatin? They have no height, no rim of crust.

(Tart is synonymous with pie. It's just the French word for pie. No other language that I'm aware of makes the distinction that you cite above.)

That doesn’t mean that he’s wrong about the meaning of the word in English, nor is the French etymology dispositive.  English borrows many words from other languages, which it frequently uses to express distinctions that often aren’t possible in other languages.  For instance, we borrowed the French words for animals (beef, pork, etc.) and use them for the flesh of that animal when used as a food.  French makes no distinction between the cow chewing its cud in a pasture and the beef I ate for dinner.  Does that mean that there is no distinction in English? Our multitude of near-synonyms is part of the richness of the language.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2018, 12:12:37 AM »
I can't get on board with calling a pizza a "pie". It's not a pie. A pie has height, and it has a pastry crust on top. If it has height, but no pastry crust on top, then it's a tart. Chicago-style pizza could therefore be considered a tart, but a regular pizza needs to be more or less flat. It is cooked on a flat pan, not in a pie tin.

This is my opinion, of course - see my recent apology for seeming to proscribe language usage based on my personal opinions. A pizza is flat, with no crust on top - I make an exception for Chicago-style - and is therefore not a pie.
What about a key-lime pie, or a lemon pie, or any of the other types of pie with no upper crust? Are they tarts?

What if you just do a kind of a dough lattice as an upper crust, covering less surface? Is there a percentage of coverage that is required before you can call your lattice-covered cherry pie a pie?

What about a Tarte Tatin? They have no height, no rim of crust.

(Tart is synonymous with pie. It's just the French word for pie. No other language that I'm aware of makes the distinction that you cite above.)

That doesn’t mean that he’s wrong about the meaning of the word in English, nor is the French etymology dispositive.  English borrows many words from other languages, which it frequently uses to express distinctions that often aren’t possible in other languages.  For instance, we borrowed the French words for animals (beef, pork, etc.) and use them for the flesh of that animal when used as a food.  French makes no distinction between the cow chewing its cud in a pasture and the beef I ate for dinner.  Does that mean that there is no distinction in English? Our multitude of near-synonyms is part of the richness of the language.

You made me look up dispositive. That makes me happy.
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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2018, 03:14:09 AM »
I can't get on board with calling a pizza a "pie". It's not a pie. A pie has height, and it has a pastry crust on top. If it has height, but no pastry crust on top, then it's a tart. Chicago-style pizza could therefore be considered a tart, but a regular pizza needs to be more or less flat. It is cooked on a flat pan, not in a pie tin.

This is my opinion, of course - see my recent apology for seeming to proscribe language usage based on my personal opinions. A pizza is flat, with no crust on top - I make an exception for Chicago-style - and is therefore not a pie.
What about a key-lime pie, or a lemon pie, or any of the other types of pie with no upper crust? Are they tarts?

What if you just do a kind of a dough lattice as an upper crust, covering less surface? Is there a percentage of coverage that is required before you can call your lattice-covered cherry pie a pie?

What about a Tarte Tatin? They have no height, no rim of crust.

(Tart is synonymous with pie. It's just the French word for pie. No other language that I'm aware of makes the distinction that you cite above.)

That doesn’t mean that he’s wrong about the meaning of the word in English, nor is the French etymology dispositive.  English borrows many words from other languages, which it frequently uses to express distinctions that often aren’t possible in other languages.  For instance, we borrowed the French words for animals (beef, pork, etc.) and use them for the flesh of that animal when used as a food.  French makes no distinction between the cow chewing its cud in a pasture and the beef I ate for dinner.  Does that mean that there is no distinction in English? Our multitude of near-synonyms is part of the richness of the language.
Well, first, no; French actually does make a distinction between the animal and the meat. We don't eat "vache" ("cow") or taureau ("ox" or "steer"), we eat "bœuf" ("beef"), to use your example. But that's not really related to this discussion.

The point is that "tart" and "pie" are synonymous in English unless you make weirdly arbitrary distinctions between upper crust and no upper crust, which goes against common usage everywhere in the English speaking world (except in arth's house and maybe parts of Oz?). Which is probably because of etymology (i.e. the French provenance, in this case) or maybe (and this answer is simple and makes more sense to me) just because the conventions in European baking terminology are French.
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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2018, 06:59:54 AM »
Another fine example of my point.
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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2018, 09:43:46 AM »
If you google "define pie" this is what comes up

Quote
pie1
pī/Submit
noun
a baked dish of fruit, or meat and vegetables, typically with a top and base of pastry.
synonyms:   pastry, tart, turnover
"the enticing aroma of fresh-baked pies"
US
a pizza
.

Offline gebobs

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2018, 09:48:29 AM »
Off topic but most pizza shops seam to sell them now and it fits in with regional food. Buffalo wings, what do you call them in Buffalo? More and more I see them called "hot wings" here in Atlanta. Did you know they eat more of them here than there? I bet different regions have their own way of making these too and we could argue if they are "true buffalo wings" or not.  To me original would be Franks red hot, butter, pinch of cayenne pepper over fried non breaded wings.

I'm in East Cobb so I'm familiar with the term hot wings. In Buffalo, they're just wings.

Quote
Hooters breads theirs so is it still a buffalo wing?

Gawd no. ;-)

Quote
I bet you cant get Lemon Pepper Wet,

Now everyone has them down here because of this scene from ATL but JR Crickets the originator still makes them the best, they changed the name to Lemon Pepper wet because of the scene but they have had them for years.  First they lemon pepper them then smoother them in original sauce.

I've never heard of that joint. Any good? Sounds delish.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 10:00:06 AM by gebobs »

Offline The Latinist

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2018, 10:02:00 AM »
Well, first, no; French actually does make a distinction between the animal and the meat. We don't eat "vache" ("cow") or taureau ("ox" or "steer"), we eat "bœuf" ("beef"), to use your example. But that's not really related to this discussion.

My apologies; I had it backward. It was in English before the Norman conquest that no distinction was made.

Quote
The point is that "tart" and "pie" are synonymous in English unless you make weirdly arbitrary distinctions between upper crust and no upper crust, which goes against common usage everywhere in the English speaking world (except in arth's house and maybe parts of Oz?). Which is probably because of etymology (i.e. the French provenance, in this case) or maybe (and this answer is simple and makes more sense to me) just because the conventions in European baking terminology are French.

It's not true, though, that it goes against the common usage, at least not in the United States. The use of 'tart', at least, is, in fact, almost always restricted to pastries without a top crust. The restriction of 'pie' to items with a top crust may be changing, but I have never in my 40 years heard a pastry with a top crust referred to as a tart.

And, of course, Art was at pains this time to say that he was expressing his own usage preference, which makes any attempt to accuse him of pedantic prescriptivism rather pointless...especially when one's basis for the claim is a tenuous etymological one.
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Offline gebobs

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2018, 10:49:53 AM »
Dean Martin is not wrong, Pizza is pie  :P


Dino was half drunk most the time. And didn't write the song anyway.

Jack Brooks, the fifth most famous Liverpudlian lyricist just behind Sir Richard Starkey, wrote it. He didn't know a thing about pizza. In fact, I have it on good authority that he never even visited Napoli. I think he just made the whole damn thing up!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 11:03:06 AM by gebobs »

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Re: What's wrong with those pizzas? (Images)
« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2018, 10:56:51 AM »
Well, first, no; French actually does make a distinction between the animal and the meat. We don't eat "vache" ("cow") or taureau ("ox" or "steer"), we eat "bœuf" ("beef"), to use your example. But that's not really related to this discussion.

My apologies; I had it backward. It was in English before the Norman conquest that no distinction was made.

Quote
The point is that "tart" and "pie" are synonymous in English unless you make weirdly arbitrary distinctions between upper crust and no upper crust, which goes against common usage everywhere in the English speaking world (except in arth's house and maybe parts of Oz?). Which is probably because of etymology (i.e. the French provenance, in this case) or maybe (and this answer is simple and makes more sense to me) just because the conventions in European baking terminology are French.

It's not true, though, that it goes against the common usage, at least not in the United States. The use of 'tart', at least, is, in fact, almost always restricted to pastries without a top crust. The restriction of 'pie' to items with a top crust may be changing, but I have never in my 40 years heard a pastry with a top crust referred to as a tart.

And, of course, Art was at pains this time to say that he was expressing his own usage preference, which makes any attempt to accuse him of pedantic prescriptivism rather pointless...especially when one's basis for the claim is a tenuous etymological one.
I don't think the etymological link is tenuous. The word tart is directly from French. It describes the same object or class thereof. It comes from the same baking tradition.

Sure, there is such a thing as a tart. But the distinction cannot be the top crust. There are plenty of pies without a top crust, as demonstrated above, which are not called tarts. So I am still waiting for this distinction to be elucidated.

It was made clear that arth was just expressing a personal preference, not a general prescription. I don't agree with it, for reasons of keylime pie.
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