Author Topic: is it racist to argue in favor of...  (Read 2580 times)

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Offline John Albert

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2018, 06:01:48 PM »
If I go to Reddit and look at the people whining about Ciri's casting, there's a whole lot of overlap with ethnonationalist movements and post history, or cries of reverse racism and white genocide.

Evidence?

Online SkeptiQueer

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2018, 06:06:00 PM »
If I go to Reddit and look at the people whining about Ciri's casting, there's a whole lot of overlap with ethnonationalist movements and post history, or cries of reverse racism and white genocide.

Evidence?
If I want your input I'll ask for it.
HIISSSSSSSS

Online Harry Black

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2018, 06:29:48 PM »
Administrator Comment This is a forum for open discussion. Kindly retain some civility

Online Rai

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #78 on: September 14, 2018, 01:42:33 AM »
]

Well, it's not famous, it's bankable. If you have a track record of successful movies that makes studios and investors willing to risk their money and resources to invest in your movie instead of another movie.

The way you become bankable really isn't up to the studios and investors. You start in smaller films, or minor roles, or TV and gradually build up a track record of success. The investors and studios don't really cast the secondary and tertiery roles, so they don't block people from landing those. In fact, studios are putting a big priority on diversity, in part as a response to just this kind of criticism and in part because they'll make more money. Audiences will get bigger if more people have someone to relate to. Hollywood knew this and for got this and knew this throughout its history.

But their analysis of whether or not to back a film is probably not based on race. Denzel could probably get any movie he wanted to star in made.

The issue is that many minority actors just cannot progress. If you are an Indian or Middle-Eastern actor, how do you break out of endless "Terrorist 2" and "Taxi Driver" roles, especially when they keep casting white people for possible breakout roles? Many people spend their careers playing goat herders and convenience store owners because they aren't even auditioned for anything else. It is incredibly hard for non-white actors to be even considered for roles that are outside their respective racist typecasting bracket.

Aziz Ansari's Master of None had a great episode about this in Season 1, I think.


Offline superdave

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #79 on: September 14, 2018, 09:36:38 AM »
the bigger issue here is whether or not something is still racist even if there some reasonable justification for it.
The answer is yes.

But I think that does mean too that we should focus on calling out the behavior as racist and not the people. 
I disavow anyone in the movement involved in any illegal,unethical, sexist, or racist behavior. However, I don't have the energy or time to investigate each person and case, and a lack of individual disavowals for each incident should not be construed as condoning such behavior.

Online Harry Black

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #80 on: September 14, 2018, 09:41:27 AM »
the bigger issue here is whether or not something is still racist even if there some reasonable justification for it.
The answer is yes.

But I think that does mean too that we should focus on calling out the behavior as racist and not the people.
I admit I dont use twitter etc but what I see mostly is:
"Thats racist"
Not
"Youre racist"

Online brilligtove

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #81 on: September 14, 2018, 01:04:18 PM »
I’ve read many novels in which I’m completely unaware or not particularly aware of the protagonist’s race, and it doesn’t interest me at all. 

I just wanted to give a mention two John Scalzi's novels "Lock In" and "Head On", in which the lead character "Chris Shane" is mixed race...but we have no idea what gender they are.  I wonder how Hollywood would handle that pickle.  Possibly cast The Rock?

I really enjoyed those books. I had no idea that Chris had no assigned gender, either. Scalzi has some interesting thoughts on the subject.

Casting the Rock... ha! Maybe they have different actors play different Threeps? He could be good for the Hilketa threep. :)
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Online brilligtove

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #82 on: September 14, 2018, 01:26:34 PM »


TL;DR Racist and other kinds of biased actions can happen at an individual or systemic level. Interventions need to take this into account to be effective.
___

Upthread there was some discussion of systemic racism vs individual racism, but it seems to have been left dangling. I think it's important to recognize the difference because these types of biases require very different interventions.


In the case of non-white actors (and female actors, I think) getting cast in potentially breakout roles, the individual biases and expectations of the people doing the casting are a big deal. Increased personal exposure to other ethnicities, education, and conversations about unconscious bias can work on that level, given enough time. Affirmative action type quotas are a systemic intervention to increase exposure (among other things). It is an overt thumb on the scales, and it pisses people off.


I think there is also a rystemic or structural problem in the way 'bankable' is evaluated. A collection of relatively unbiased decisions keeps churning out biased results. I'm not at all sure what specific interventions can be made in this system - I don't know enough about it. I'll hazard a guess that better market research into who and what people are willing to spend money on is a good start. I remember this happening in advertizing to gay folks in the 80s and 90s. Companies suddenly realized that gay people had a lot of disposable income and no one was catering to that market.



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Offline CarbShark

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2018, 01:31:00 PM »
So it sounds like the issue boils down to not enough minority and marginalized actors are getting cast in potential breakout roles?

Sounds simple enough to solve. Maybe if Hollywood would make an effort to increase diversity...
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Calinthalus

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2018, 01:32:24 PM »
I’ve read many novels in which I’m completely unaware or not particularly aware of the protagonist’s race, and it doesn’t interest me at all. 

I just wanted to give a mention two John Scalzi's novels "Lock In" and "Head On", in which the lead character "Chris Shane" is mixed race...but we have no idea what gender they are.  I wonder how Hollywood would handle that pickle.  Possibly cast The Rock?

I really enjoyed those books. I had no idea that Chris had no assigned gender, either. Scalzi has some interesting thoughts on the subject.

Casting the Rock... ha! Maybe they have different actors play different Threeps? He could be good for the Hilketa threep. :)
The audiobook for the second book is available in two versions, one with Wil Wheaton reading, the other with Amber Benson.  Since the book is from Chris' POV, it allows you go pick a gendered voice to hear if you choose to.
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Online brilligtove

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2018, 02:03:02 PM »
I’ve read many novels in which I’m completely unaware or not particularly aware of the protagonist’s race, and it doesn’t interest me at all. 

I just wanted to give a mention two John Scalzi's novels "Lock In" and "Head On", in which the lead character "Chris Shane" is mixed race...but we have no idea what gender they are.  I wonder how Hollywood would handle that pickle.  Possibly cast The Rock?

I really enjoyed those books. I had no idea that Chris had no assigned gender, either. Scalzi has some interesting thoughts on the subject.

Casting the Rock... ha! Maybe they have different actors play different Threeps? He could be good for the Hilketa threep. :)
The audiobook for the second book is available in two versions, one with Wil Wheaton reading, the other with Amber Benson.  Since the book is from Chris' POV, it allows you go pick a gendered voice to hear if you choose to.

I was vaguely aware of this, but never thought about it. I really like Wheaton's narrations, so bought that one. When I have a chance to listen again I'll get the Benson version. Neat.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2018, 02:25:51 PM »
If I go to Reddit and look at the people whining about Ciri's casting, there's a whole lot of overlap with ethnonationalist movements and post history, or cries of reverse racism and white genocide.

Evidence?

If I want your input I'll ask for it.

What an answer! 

Make whatever claim you want, even one that directly implies you've done research, and when somebody asks for the evidence you just tell them to go suck. How's that for intellectual honesty?

And this from the guy who accuses me of arguing in bad faith.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 03:05:50 PM by John Albert »

Online Harry Black

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2018, 03:14:57 PM »


TL;DR Racist and other kinds of biased actions can happen at an individual or systemic level. Interventions need to take this into account to be effective.
___

Upthread there was some discussion of systemic racism vs individual racism, but it seems to have been left dangling. I think it's important to recognize the difference because these types of biases require very different interventions.


In the case of non-white actors (and female actors, I think) getting cast in potentially breakout roles, the individual biases and expectations of the people doing the casting are a big deal. Increased personal exposure to other ethnicities, education, and conversations about unconscious bias can work on that level, given enough time. Affirmative action type quotas are a systemic intervention to increase exposure (among other things). It is an overt thumb on the scales, and it pisses people off.


I think there is also a rystemic or structural problem in the way 'bankable' is evaluated. A collection of relatively unbiased decisions keeps churning out biased results. I'm not at all sure what specific interventions can be made in this system - I don't know enough about it. I'll hazard a guess that better market research into who and what people are willing to spend money on is a good start. I remember this happening in advertizing to gay folks in the 80s and 90s. Companies suddenly realized that gay people had a lot of disposable income and no one was catering to that market.
I like your point about bankable.
We just had a couple of years where Tom Cruise and Will Smith movies tanked hard but movies with largely unknown and diverse casts such as Get Out, Black Panther, Crazy Rich Asians all did really well.

Offline John Albert

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2018, 03:22:39 PM »
The studios definitely do some extensive market research before sinking money into a picture. Perhaps they're somewhat hindered by the methodology of the marketing firms who conduct that research.

If they were on top of their game, I'd have expected them to have seen the current paradigm shift coming at least a decade ago.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 03:52:11 PM by John Albert »

Online Harry Black

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2018, 04:08:41 PM »
The studios definitely do some extensive market research before sinking money into a picture. Perhaps they're somewhat hindered by the methodology of the marketing firms who conduct that research.

If they were on top of their game, I'd have expected them to have seen the current paradigm shift coming at least a decade ago.
Im sure they do.
But the decision still falls to an exec and from the Sony hack we know how arbitrary and illogical they can be in their pronouncements.

 

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