Author Topic: is it racist to argue in favor of...  (Read 2619 times)

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Offline haudace

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2018, 10:23:09 AM »
Would people care this much if superman was suddenly pigmented green?
Do people even care that superman at some point became golden? What was his name? Superman prime one million or something?

I wonder why it matters so much that a character has adopted a specific human pigmentation.

Offline heyalison

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2018, 10:27:31 AM »
It's about the same effect as when a woman calls rape when there is no rape.

So, other than one gif, no one's going to comment on this sexist BS?
Is it not true that it hurts the movement when a Women Calls for rape when there is no rape? Because even if it happens rarely, they get exposure in the media and drawn out of proportions, and used by people opposing the #metoo movement.

Also, explain to me how is it what I said sexists?

Injecting the idea that women falsify rape charges often enough for this metaphor to be relevant is sexist. If you're insistent using rape charges as a metaphor you'd be more statistically relevant to say "When men accuse women of lying to deny their experiences of being raped, and how that undermines men's ability to be taken seriously on the topic."

But, no, you chose to go with the sexist lie that women lie about rape in numbers to undermine any rape allegation. That's the sexism. But I doubt you'll agree, and instead you and others will double-down and rage about it.

Offline heyalison

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2018, 10:29:11 AM »
Would people care this much if superman was suddenly pigmented green?
Do people even care that superman at some point became golden? What was his name? Superman prime one million or something?

I wonder why it matters so much that a character has adopted a specific human pigmentation.

Because "pigmentation," as you say, matters in the real world. It isn't a fantasy, and to argue in this "I love all colours, green, purple, white, black" way is actively ignoring the impact of systemic racism.

Offline haudace

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2018, 05:09:23 PM »
Would people care this much if superman was suddenly pigmented green?
Do people even care that superman at some point became golden? What was his name? Superman prime one million or something?

I wonder why it matters so much that a character has adopted a specific human pigmentation.

Because "pigmentation," as you say, matters in the real world. It isn't a fantasy, and to argue in this "I love all colours, green, purple, white, black" way is actively ignoring the impact of systemic racism.

Actually, I wasn't downplaying the effects of systemic racism or any types of racism whether it be trivial or not. The mere fact that the subject of fictional character's race is a hot topic of conversation shows how racialized this whole thing has become. Trying to defend that a fictional character should be of a specific race, to the point of antagonizing others, is basically racist. On the other hand, no one cares that superman became golden at some point. I can already imagine the reaction if some daring artist portrays him as a minority.


Eh, hopefully what I wrote makes sense this time.

Offline Harry Black

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2018, 06:18:34 PM »
Would people care this much if superman was suddenly pigmented green?
Do people even care that superman at some point became golden? What was his name? Superman prime one million or something?

I wonder why it matters so much that a character has adopted a specific human pigmentation.

Because "pigmentation," as you say, matters in the real world. It isn't a fantasy, and to argue in this "I love all colours, green, purple, white, black" way is actively ignoring the impact of systemic racism.

Actually, I wasn't downplaying the effects of systemic racism or any types of racism whether it be trivial or not. The mere fact that the subject of fictional character's race is a hot topic of conversation shows how racialized this whole thing has become. Trying to defend that a fictional character should be of a specific race, to the point of antagonizing others, is basically racist. On the other hand, no one cares that superman became golden at some point. I can already imagine the reaction if some daring artist portrays him as a minority.


Eh, hopefully what I wrote makes sense this time.
I see the point you are making, but being gold was temporary wheras people lost their shit when DC got rid of his underpants.
It really is a case of nerds feeling ownership over things who take certain things as the default. Race is one of those things, and it gets really ugly when they see that other people have not felt as represented as us.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2018, 08:05:46 PM »
Because of the tradition of white-washing in casting, the ongoing underrepresentation of non-white characters in entertainment, and ongoing systemic racism, casting a non-white actor as a traditionally white character is a fundamentally different act than casting a white actor in a traditionally non-white role.
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Offline Guillermo

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2018, 11:25:17 AM »
It's about the same effect as when a woman calls rape when there is no rape.

So, other than one gif, no one's going to comment on this sexist BS?
Is it not true that it hurts the movement when a Women Calls for rape when there is no rape? Because even if it happens rarely, they get exposure in the media and drawn out of proportions, and used by people opposing the #metoo movement.

Also, explain to me how is it what I said sexists?

Injecting the idea that women falsify rape charges often enough for this metaphor to be relevant is sexist. If you're insistent using rape charges as a metaphor you'd be more statistically relevant to say "When men accuse women of lying to deny their experiences of being raped, and how that undermines men's ability to be taken seriously on the topic."

But, no, you chose to go with the sexist lie that women lie about rape in numbers to undermine any rape allegation. That's the sexism. But I doubt you'll agree, and instead you and others will double-down and rage about it.
Wow, you intermediately characterize me in such a way assuming that my comment was completely intentional in the precise way without even taking into account the context or even if I am a person who would double-down and rage about it. Even after reading later on that I back down on some of the things I have said on the topic.

You are correct. The comparison is not equal because the frequencies are not the same. So I apologize for using said comparison. The situation in which women falsify rape charges are Considerably rare, and I recognize that.  My argument was that assuming that something is racist when it is not and having a public outcry about it, hurts the civil rights movement, which does not compare to my ill used metaphor.

And no, I did not deliberately used the example to undermine any rape allegation.


 
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Online John Albert

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2018, 04:10:50 PM »
Maybe it's a good idea to get your knee reflexes checked—or at least try mustering up your most generous spirit of charity and then reread the post—before calling somebody sexist or racist on a public discussion forum.

Though it was unnecessary and probably ill-advised to invoke a touchy subject such as rape to make his point about false accusations, what Guillermo said was not explicitly sexist. At least I didn't read it as an implication that false rape reports are the default, or even common.

What he actually said is that any known false reports have the potential to hurt the #metoo movement, by providing excuses for the naysayers to always grant benefit of the doubt to the accused. It's actually a reasonable statement that supports the movement and does not attack or demean the interests of women at all.

Offline JohnM

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2018, 04:43:02 PM »
I haven't read all of this thread but I am interested in asking a similar question on diversity and would appreciate other's views.

There's a fiction show I'm watching (The Bodyguard BBC) and as usual, The BEEB make a good effort to have a diverse cast - all well and good. However, I think they've done overdone it in this series to the extent that the situation becomes unrealistic and which takes something away from the quality of the show.

without going into detail everyone in senior management of the police is either a woman or black of a variation thereof. There's not an overweight ginger in sight.

In one sense it's a fiction show so they can do whatever the hell they want but these sort of thrillers only pull you in if there is in some sense it's believable..

Any thoughts?


Online John Albert

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2018, 04:50:38 PM »
I haven't read all of this thread but I am interested in asking a similar question on diversity and would appreciate other's views.

There's a fiction show I'm watching (The Bodyguard BBC) and as usual, The BEEB make a good effort to have a diverse cast - all well and good. However, I think they've done overdone it in this series to the extent that the situation becomes unrealistic and which takes something away from the quality of the show.

without going into detail everyone in senior management of the police is either a woman or black of a variation thereof. There's not an overweight ginger in sight.

In one sense it's a fiction show so they can do whatever the hell they want but these sort of thrillers only pull you in if there is in some sense it's believable..

Any thoughts?

A lot of people would argue that it's your fault for not finding that situation believable.

"Are you saying it's not credible for black women to be ranking officers in the police department? What are you, some kind of a racist?" Etc, etc.

Offline Calinthalus

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2018, 04:52:37 PM »
I'm reminded from a quote from Supergirl's first season:
Quote
All four of you standing there doing nothing, you look like the attractive yet non-threatening, racially diverse cast of a CW show.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2018, 05:01:57 PM »
I haven't read all of this thread but I am interested in asking a similar question on diversity and would appreciate other's views.

There's a fiction show I'm watching (The Bodyguard BBC) and as usual, The BEEB make a good effort to have a diverse cast - all well and good. However, I think they've done overdone it in this series to the extent that the situation becomes unrealistic and which takes something away from the quality of the show.

without going into detail everyone in senior management of the police is either a woman or black of a variation thereof. There's not an overweight ginger in sight.

In one sense it's a fiction show so they can do whatever the hell they want but these sort of thrillers only pull you in if there is in some sense it's believable..

Any thoughts?
My thoughts are that it is a really good thing.
As I said elsewhere, I think it is the unremarked upon assumptions of a show that sink into the psyche of culture at large and finding a way to cast more talent that would not otherwise be seen (especially on the BBC which has had criticism for focusing on mostly white period dramas) is a good thing in my opinion and its very possible that these were all just the best people who auditioned.

There are people of colour at all levels of the police so I dont see why its a stretch to imagine that there may be clusters here and there due to statistical weirdness.
Failing that, just pretend its a dystopia where affirmative action has pushed white people out of management.

Online John Albert

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2018, 05:16:06 PM »
Failing that, just pretend its a dystopia where affirmative action has pushed white people out of management.

Maybe the fit black women beat out all the overweight gingers in the physical portion of the police exam.

Offline Harry Black

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2018, 05:21:00 PM »
Failing that, just pretend its a dystopia where affirmative action has pushed white people out of management.

Maybe the fit black women beat out all the overweight gingers in the physical portion of the police exam.
I remember my buddy applied to the London Met and was furious that he had one of the top fitness scores but didnt get in.
Maybe he assumed police work is 90% sprinting?

Offline gebobs

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Re: is it racist to argue in favor of...
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2018, 05:24:40 PM »
I haven't read all of this thread but I am interested in asking a similar question on diversity and would appreciate other's views.

There's a fiction show I'm watching (The Bodyguard BBC) and as usual, The BEEB make a good effort to have a diverse cast - all well and good. However, I think they've done overdone it in this series to the extent that the situation becomes unrealistic and which takes something away from the quality of the show.

without going into detail everyone in senior management of the police is either a woman or black of a variation thereof. There's not an overweight ginger in sight.

In one sense it's a fiction show so they can do whatever the hell they want but these sort of thrillers only pull you in if there is in some sense it's believable..

Any thoughts?

Come visit Atlanta. It's only remarkable when you see a policeman or airport security that isn't black. But Atlanta is a majority black city. I don't know if such a place exists in the UK.

 

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