Author Topic: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?  (Read 1560 times)

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Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2018, 09:56:22 AM »
From the context it's pretty clear to me that the knowledge God's worried about keeping from Adam and Eve in the story is the knowledge that leads to little Adams and Eves. That's why their reaction to the knowledge is to cover their nakedness, and it's why God punishes Eve by giving her pain in childbirth.

It also has always seemed to me that the serpent is clearly the hero of the story, offering human beings knowledge and life that God would deny them for his own petty reasons.

Also?  The serpent is not Satan.  Just saying.

In Christian dogma, the talking serpent is Satan. I would agree that there is nothing in scriptures that say that exact thing but the dogma has the dragon of Revelation as Satan and the serpent.

My focus is on our benefits or lose and not the reality of this myth.

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DL

Offline John Albert

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2018, 10:26:49 AM »
In Christian dogma, the talking serpent is Satan.

There is not one single "Christian dogma." There exist many Christian denominations, each with its own dogma and interpretations of the various biblical myths.

Secondly, interpreting the Serpent character as Satan really doesn't make any sense in the context of the story. The Serpent is introduced in Genesis 3:1, and that verse obviously refers to the animal:

       
Quote from: God (allegedly)
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made."

Moreover, if the Serpent character was really Satan, then why (in Genesis 3:14) did God condemn it to crawl on its belly and eat dirt for the rest of its life? It obviously refers to the animal. This part of the story is clearly a "just so" tale to explain the unusual appearance and behavior of snakes.


I would agree that there is nothing in scriptures that say that exact thing but the dogma has the dragon of Revelation as Satan and the serpent.

A dragon is not synonymous with a serpent. Dragons have legs and wings. Snakes do not.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 10:33:23 AM by John Albert »

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2018, 11:21:24 AM »
In Christian dogma, the talking serpent is Satan.

There is not one single "Christian dogma." There exist many Christian denominations, each with its own dogma and interpretations of the various biblical myths.

Secondly, interpreting the Serpent character as Satan really doesn't make any sense in the context of the story. The Serpent is introduced in Genesis 3:1, and that verse obviously refers to the animal:

       
Quote from: God (allegedly)
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made."

Moreover, if the Serpent character was really Satan, then why (in Genesis 3:14) did God condemn it to crawl on its belly and eat dirt for the rest of its life? It obviously refers to the animal. This part of the story is clearly a "just so" tale to explain the unusual appearance and behavior of snakes.


I would agree that there is nothing in scriptures that say that exact thing but the dogma has the dragon of Revelation as Satan and the serpent.

A dragon is not synonymous with a serpent. Dragons have legs and wings. Snakes do not.

Sure there are many dogma's in the fractured Christian/Catholic religion.

That does not take away from the fact that the generally accepted dogma has people believing that the talking serpent is Satan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible

"The serpent is most often identified with the hubristic Satan, and sometimes with Lilith."

If you do not want to accept that then I do not know where you want to go.

Regards
DL

Offline John Albert

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2018, 11:34:35 AM »
Sure there are many dogma's in the fractured Christian/Catholic religion.

That does not take away from the fact that the generally accepted dogma has people believing that the talking serpent is Satan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible

"The serpent is most often identified with the hubristic Satan, and sometimes with Lilith."

If you do not want to accept that then I do not know where you want to go.

People believe all kinds of garbage when faith is all they go on.

The human mind is a pattern-recognizing engine that tries to create meaning out of nonsense. Hence, the faithful find all sorts of quasi-rational pretenses to confabulate mystical bullshit about religious scriptures, even if it means ignoring a detail that's plainly written right there in the text.

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2018, 11:44:05 AM »
Sure there are many dogma's in the fractured Christian/Catholic religion.

That does not take away from the fact that the generally accepted dogma has people believing that the talking serpent is Satan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible

"The serpent is most often identified with the hubristic Satan, and sometimes with Lilith."

If you do not want to accept that then I do not know where you want to go.

People believe all kinds of garbage when faith is all they go on.

The human mind is a pattern-recognizing engine that tries to create meaning out of nonsense. Hence, the faithful find all sorts of quasi-rational pretenses to confabulate mystical bullshit about religious scriptures, even if it means ignoring a detail that's plainly written right there in the text.

I agree.

Indoctrination by lying clergy adds to that.

Regards
DL

Offline Noisy Rhysling

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2018, 05:34:52 PM »
This manlove thing seems a bit suspect... >:(
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Offline RubyDuckman

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2018, 03:21:53 PM »
That wasn't Satan. It was Crawly (later called Crowley)

And it was all part of an ineffable plan

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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2018, 01:01:16 PM »
According to Revelation 12 the serpent was Satan.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2018, 03:48:01 PM »
According to Revelation 12 the serpent was Satan.

You'll forgive me if I don't interpret a Jewish text from around 1,000 B.C. in light of the ramblings of a Christian prophet written some 1,100 years later.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2018, 03:51:57 PM »
From the context it's pretty clear to me that the knowledge God's worried about keeping from Adam and Eve in the story is the knowledge that leads to little Adams and Eves. That's why their reaction to the knowledge is to cover their nakedness, and it's why God punishes Eve by giving her pain in childbirth.

Oh, now I get it!

The serpent is his wiener.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2018, 05:02:01 PM »
According to Revelation 12 the serpent was Satan.

You'll forgive me if I don't interpret a Jewish text from around 1,000 B.C. in light of the ramblings of a Christian prophet written some 1,100 years later.

It depends on if you are looking at it from a Christian point of view or a Jewish point of view. To Christians the serpent was Satan at least to most anyway and yes it was an evolution of the story.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2018, 06:47:00 PM »
According to Revelation 12 the serpent was Satan.

You'll forgive me if I don't interpret a Jewish text from around 1,000 B.C. in light of the ramblings of a Christian prophet written some 1,100 years later.

It depends on if you are looking at it from a Christian point of view or a Jewish point of view. To Christians the serpent was Satan at least to most anyway and yes it was an evolution of the story.

Not being a Christian, I don’t give a fuck what Christians believe about Jewish mythology. Nor do I think that how Christian mythologists reinterpreted the story has any more effect on its meaning than the Percy Jackson books have on the meaning of Hesiod.

To be sure, works inspired by previous works can be great or important in their own right, and they must be interpreted in the context of the works that inspired them; but they are utterly irrelevant to the meaning of the originals.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2018, 07:59:53 PM »
According to Revelation 12 the serpent was Satan.

Very much open to interpretation in my opinion. The relevant passage, I believe, is Revelation 12:9 ...And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This does not say that the great dragon is the same serpent that spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden. It only says that it "deceiveth the whole world". The -eth suffix on a verb indicates a present tense, not a past tense. We would render that in modern English as "...which deceives the whole world" which is indeed how the NIV renders it.

That passage almost certainly contributed to the inspiration for Milton's Paradise Lost, though.
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2018, 11:05:17 AM »

Not being a Christian, I don’t give a fuck what Christians believe about Jewish mythology. Nor do I think that how Christian mythologists reinterpreted the story has any more effect on its meaning than the Percy Jackson books have on the meaning of Hesiod.


To be fair, Revelation is a Jewish work.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

 

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