Author Topic: Open carry...  (Read 84442 times)

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Online Harry Black

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2018, 02:45:43 PM »
Aaaand this is now a gun control thread rather than a discussion of open carry.
As if there’s a difference


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There is.
To participate in a discussion on open carry, we take for granted that guns are legally held and discuss the pros/cons of being allowed to carry them visibly.
Personally, I think that carrying a hunting weapon should not be classed under this and that such a weapon should be in a case until you are actually in the area you intend to hunt in.


Offline The Latinist

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2018, 03:03:37 PM »

Right compare the “extreme” position of the gun control advocates  the the gun nuts and they’re both equal.

It’s a pure false equivalency.


The assertion was made that no one on the forum had ever called for guns to be taken out of the hands of all civilians. Skeptiqueer found such an assertion. Now some are just pedantically moving the goalposts and nitpicking exactly how the assertion was made.

Point still goes to Skeptiqueer.


First of all, I made no assertion at all. It was Skeptiqueer who made an assertion, viz. that “People on this forum have advocated for a total ban on private firearms.”  I merely said that I did not recall anyone advocating for such a ban.

Secondly, words have meanings and you’ll find that I choose my words carefully.  To “advocate for” a position is much stronger than merely having or expressing an opinion. It necessarily involves public calls for action and an effort to persuade others to act. To claim based on a statement like moj’s, in which he expressed a preference for such a ban but clearly did not make any call for one, that “people on this forum have advocated for a total ban” is misleading and reflective of the kind of distortion that leads to the kinds of opinions RGU expressed to which I was responding in the first place. It’s simply not true either that the right wants to arm babies or that the left wants to ban all guns—yet that’s the kind of narrative people like Skeptiqueer on both seem to want to push.

Skeptiqueer, I explicitly reject the idea that mild expressions of opinion like moj’s on either side justify the fears of the extremes on either side.  Indeed, I think the fear is self-justifying and twists and distorts the words of those who disagree into whatever it needs to sustain itself.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2018, 03:49:59 PM »
Aaaand this is now a gun control thread rather than a discussion of open carry.
As if there’s a difference
There is.
To participate in a discussion on open carry, we take for granted that guns are legally held and discuss the pros/cons of being allowed to carry them visibly.
Personally, I think that carrying a hunting weapon should not be classed under this and that such a weapon should be in a case until you are actually in the area you intend to hunt in.

In a venn diagram Open Carry is fully and wholly in side Gun Control. (So are carrying hunting weapons.)

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2018, 04:23:43 PM »
To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2018, 04:52:55 PM »
People on this forum have advocated for a total ban on private firearms.

People on this forum have advocated for a total ban on private firearms.
Citation please. I don't recall anyone advocating that.

I’d be interested in where that happened, too.  I don’t recall anyone advocating a complete ban.  I thought my own position was about as radical as it got around here.


https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,44595.msg9421538.html#msg9421538

While I would like to see a ban on citizens with guns realize I am in the minority and that will probably never happen. I am happy to see more gun control though and pleased by the trend of less people and less younger people interested in guns. It’s a smaller number of the population who has them, but they are just buying more guns and are far more vocal about keeping their guns. Like Jon Oliver said we just need to be more vocal as well. I agree with what Teethering was saying last past and don’t think it’s as impossible as many frame it and think we will see a culture shift on this issue.

To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.
Moj expressed a qualified personal preference. He advocated for "more gun control" and even that was, frankly, pretty wishy-washy.

That does not balance the extreme positions of the right wing (or even the laws that have been passed, like open carry).

It's still a false equivalency.

But go ahead and get bogged down on whether Moj was actually advocating a total ban or more gun control.


and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #125 on: October 13, 2018, 04:55:32 PM »
To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.

But I don't think he took an extreme position.  He expressed a personal preference and took a moderate position. That's not the same thing, and it is not right to pretend it is.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #126 on: October 13, 2018, 05:15:59 PM »
To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.

But I don't think he took an extreme position.  He expressed a personal preference and took a moderate position. That's not the same thing, and it is not right to pretend it is.

Howabout literally two posts later?

While I would like to see a ban on citizens with guns realize I am in the minority and that will probably never happen. I am happy to see more gun control though and pleased by the trend of less people and less younger people interested in guns. It’s a smaller number of the population who has them, but they are just buying more guns and are far more vocal about keeping their guns. Like Jon Oliver said we just need to be more vocal as well. I agree with what Teethering was saying last past and don’t think it’s as impossible as many frame it and think we will see a culture shift on this issue.
So we're just gonna pretend there wasn't a ten page fight with a bunch of "nobody is coming for your guns" stuff, huh?

Whats that got to do with what I said? can you quote me saying anything different?

The context was right there at the link, or you could ask moj who quoted me in this thread but didn't clarify that I misunderstood.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #127 on: October 13, 2018, 06:18:11 PM »
Howabout literally two posts later?

While I would like to see a ban on citizens with guns realize I am in the minority and that will probably never happen. I am happy to see more gun control though and pleased by the trend of less people and less younger people interested in guns. It’s a smaller number of the population who has them, but they are just buying more guns and are far more vocal about keeping their guns. Like Jon Oliver said we just need to be more vocal as well. I agree with what Teethering was saying last past and don’t think it’s as impossible as many frame it and think we will see a culture shift on this issue.
So we're just gonna pretend there wasn't a ten page fight with a bunch of "nobody is coming for your guns" stuff, huh?

Whats that got to do with what I said? can you quote me saying anything different?

The context was right there at the link, or you could ask moj who quoted me in this thread but didn't clarify that I misunderstood.

Seriously?
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline moj

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #128 on: October 13, 2018, 11:44:01 PM »
To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.

But I don't think he took an extreme position.  He expressed a personal preference and took a moderate position. That's not the same thing, and it is not right to pretend it is.

Howabout literally two posts later?

While I would like to see a ban on citizens with guns realize I am in the minority and that will probably never happen. I am happy to see more gun control though and pleased by the trend of less people and less younger people interested in guns. It’s a smaller number of the population who has them, but they are just buying more guns and are far more vocal about keeping their guns. Like Jon Oliver said we just need to be more vocal as well. I agree with what Teethering was saying last past and don’t think it’s as impossible as many frame it and think we will see a culture shift on this issue.
So we're just gonna pretend there wasn't a ten page fight with a bunch of "nobody is coming for your guns" stuff, huh?

Whats that got to do with what I said? can you quote me saying anything different?

How is the two post later a thing? I was then, as now, asking you what you are typing about?

Yay fall weather mofos!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 11:47:46 PM by moj »

Offline moj

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #129 on: October 15, 2018, 03:56:56 PM »
To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.

But I don't think he took an extreme position.  He expressed a personal preference and took a moderate position. That's not the same thing, and it is not right to pretend it is.

exactly, it was also from 2 years ago and I say in the first sentence I don't think it would ever happen. Yet SQ makes it sounds like I'm plotting  to take away every gun ever made it and that this kind of stance common across the forum. If so why go so far back to find a quote? Advocating implies a proactive stance, admitting it will never happen, is not that.

Online John Albert

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #130 on: October 15, 2018, 05:08:04 PM »
This kind of strawmanning is all too common in the national discussion about firearm legislation in the USA.

The NRA has polarized the entire subject to the point of toxicity with media campaigns that promote an all-or-nothing view of the 2A, and insist that anybody who broaches the subject of firearm control laws is secretly plotting to send confiscation squads around to every firearm owner's house.

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #131 on: October 15, 2018, 05:11:16 PM »
To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.

But I don't think he took an extreme position.  He expressed a personal preference and took a moderate position. That's not the same thing, and it is not right to pretend it is.

exactly, it was also from 2 years ago and I say in the first sentence I don't think it would ever happen. Yet SQ makes it sounds like I'm plotting  to take away every gun ever made it and that this kind of stance common across the forum. If so why go so far back to find a quote? Advocating implies a proactive stance, admitting it will never happen, is not that.

I said people on this forum have advocated that position. I'mnot trying to say it's common to the forum, I'm saying the viewpoint exists. It's probably as common as "child prostitutes should be able to buy their heroin and machinegun with no issues" is.

Whether you think it's likely doesn't have bearing on whether you've voiced support for it publicly. If this were something you didn't support I don't think you would split that same hair. When Jordan Peterson says that Christian patriarchy is the best thing for society, but sadly it's too late and won't happen he's still advocating for that position.

If you have changed or don't think it's good policy, say so. If you do, stop trying to put words in my mouth and stand by what you said instead of putting words in my mouth to do a half-assed denial. You said it and meant it, or you said it and didn't mean it, you changed your mind, whatever. Just pick one instead of trying to weasel around the word "advocating" as if you're embarrassed by what you said.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #132 on: October 15, 2018, 06:37:18 PM »
To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.

But I don't think he took an extreme position.  He expressed a personal preference and took a moderate position. That's not the same thing, and it is not right to pretend it is.

exactly, it was also from 2 years ago and I say in the first sentence I don't think it would ever happen. Yet SQ makes it sounds like I'm plotting  to take away every gun ever made it and that this kind of stance common across the forum. If so why go so far back to find a quote? Advocating implies a proactive stance, admitting it will never happen, is not that.

I said people on this forum have advocated that position. I'mnot trying to say it's common to the forum, I'm saying the viewpoint exists. It's probably as common as "child prostitutes should be able to buy their heroin and machinegun with no issues" is.

Whether you think it's likely doesn't have bearing on whether you've voiced support for it publicly. If this were something you didn't support I don't think you would split that same hair. When Jordan Peterson says that Christian patriarchy is the best thing for society, but sadly it's too late and won't happen he's still advocating for that position.

If you have changed or don't think it's good policy, say so. If you do, stop trying to put words in my mouth and stand by what you said instead of putting words in my mouth to do a half-assed denial. You said it and meant it, or you said it and didn't mean it, you changed your mind, whatever. Just pick one instead of trying to weasel around the word "advocating" as if you're embarrassed by what you said.

So it's clearly a false equivalency.

Barely any support at all for a total ban, compared with total acceptance of the extremist's interpretation of the second amendment and extreme gun laws, like open carry; concealed carry; no waiting periods; not restrictions on assault weapons; no Brady bill provisions; no "common sense gun laws"; no closing of the gunshow loophole (even a denial of its existence); etc. etc.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2018, 08:52:18 PM »
To The Latinist:

What might work better...

“Wow, Skeptiqueer! I honestly did not recall any forum member taking such an extreme position.

Thanks for pointing that out, and I stand corrected.”

Or, dig in further, I guess. Your choice.

No, I'm on The Lat's side in this one. Moj said (I paraphrase) "Well, it'd be nice if all the guns were taken away but that's never going to happen so..." blahblah whatever else he said. It was certainly not advocating such a position, merely making an observation that an alternate universe where it was possible would be nice.

Also, one very weak example doth not an argument make.
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Offline Ranb

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Re: Open carry...
« Reply #134 on: October 19, 2018, 02:01:45 PM »
.... no closing of the gunshow loophole (even a denial of its existence); etc. etc.
So this gunshow loophole you speak of.  How sure are you that it actually exists? :)

 

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