Author Topic: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?  (Read 4316 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #105 on: September 30, 2018, 12:35:27 PM »
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Yes, fruit is obesigenic. I'm sure some of them do suffer from other diseases caused by high carb intake. Your point? Maybe Zookeepers are smarter than those who promote the USDA dietary guidelines?  I'm there with you.

Well, you can still start a new thread.  I thought you’d invented a new word with ‘obesigenic,’ but I find that obesogenic is a perfectly acceptable word.

Strawberries recently have come into season in Australia, and there’s also been a contamination panic with unknown miscreants inserting needles into rare berries, so the growers have been forced to either dump their strawberries or slash their prices, so strawberries have become very cheap, and I’ve been eating a lot of them (previously I hadn’t bought them, considering them overpriced compared to other fruits) as much as 500 g a day, and I love them.  And haven’t felt better.  And they’re an excellent food item, being low in calories for their weight.

The trouble is, they’re replacing other foods which are more calorie dense, so I’m losing weight...


Yeah, there's nothing obesigenic about fruit.  A medium-sized apple contains 95 kcal.  You'd have eat 21 of them to obtain 2000 kcal.

Agreed.  Although apples aren’t particularly nutritious.  There are better fruits around.  I eat two a day, including everything - the skin, the core, the seeds, the stalk, even the label sometimes (I claim that it increases dietary fibre)...  it’s ‘obesogenic’ by the way, not ‘obesigenic.’  Is it an American spelling or the American pronunciation?


So which is it? Fruit is causing increased obesity in zoo animals or its not obesogenic?



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As jt has noted, it’s just ‘calories in, versus calories out.’   A calorie is a calorie, is a calorie.  The zoo animals are sedentary, not having to work for their food.  In the wild, they’d have to work for their food, climbing trees, to find fruits that were smaller and less sweet, and tougher to digest.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #106 on: September 30, 2018, 05:12:30 PM »
Quote

Yes, fruit is obesigenic. I'm sure some of them do suffer from other diseases caused by high carb intake. Your point? Maybe Zookeepers are smarter than those who promote the USDA dietary guidelines?  I'm there with you.

Well, you can still start a new thread.  I thought you’d invented a new word with ‘obesigenic,’ but I find that obesogenic is a perfectly acceptable word.

Strawberries recently have come into season in Australia, and there’s also been a contamination panic with unknown miscreants inserting needles into rare berries, so the growers have been forced to either dump their strawberries or slash their prices, so strawberries have become very cheap, and I’ve been eating a lot of them (previously I hadn’t bought them, considering them overpriced compared to other fruits) as much as 500 g a day, and I love them.  And haven’t felt better.  And they’re an excellent food item, being low in calories for their weight.

The trouble is, they’re replacing other foods which are more calorie dense, so I’m losing weight...


Yeah, there's nothing obesigenic about fruit.  A medium-sized apple contains 95 kcal.  You'd have eat 21 of them to obtain 2000 kcal.

Agreed.  Although apples aren’t particularly nutritious.  There are better fruits around.  I eat two a day, including everything - the skin, the core, the seeds, the stalk, even the label sometimes (I claim that it increases dietary fibre)...  it’s ‘obesogenic’ by the way, not ‘obesigenic.’  Is it an American spelling or the American pronunciation?


So which is it? Fruit is causing increased obesity in zoo animals or its not obesogenic?



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As jt has noted, it’s just ‘calories in, versus calories out.’   A calorie is a calorie, is a calorie.  The zoo animals are sedentary, not having to work for their food.  In the wild, they’d have to work for their food, climbing trees, to find fruits that were smaller and less sweet, and tougher to digest.
Your source on this says it’s a recent phenomenon. Have zoo animals discovered you tube and cable TV in the last 20 years? 

You’re actually arguing with yourself again. And your source.

So, fruit is sweeter but it doesn’t matter because calories are all that matter and the zookeepers are wrong. That’s what you’re saying


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I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #107 on: September 30, 2018, 08:27:28 PM »
Quote

Yes, fruit is obesigenic. I'm sure some of them do suffer from other diseases caused by high carb intake. Your point? Maybe Zookeepers are smarter than those who promote the USDA dietary guidelines?  I'm there with you.

Well, you can still start a new thread.  I thought you’d invented a new word with ‘obesigenic,’ but I find that obesogenic is a perfectly acceptable word.

Strawberries recently have come into season in Australia, and there’s also been a contamination panic with unknown miscreants inserting needles into rare berries, so the growers have been forced to either dump their strawberries or slash their prices, so strawberries have become very cheap, and I’ve been eating a lot of them (previously I hadn’t bought them, considering them overpriced compared to other fruits) as much as 500 g a day, and I love them.  And haven’t felt better.  And they’re an excellent food item, being low in calories for their weight.

The trouble is, they’re replacing other foods which are more calorie dense, so I’m losing weight...


Yeah, there's nothing obesigenic about fruit.  A medium-sized apple contains 95 kcal.  You'd have eat 21 of them to obtain 2000 kcal.

Agreed.  Although apples aren’t particularly nutritious.  There are better fruits around.  I eat two a day, including everything - the skin, the core, the seeds, the stalk, even the label sometimes (I claim that it increases dietary fibre)...  it’s ‘obesogenic’ by the way, not ‘obesigenic.’  Is it an American spelling or the American pronunciation?


So which is it? Fruit is causing increased obesity in zoo animals or its not obesogenic?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As jt has noted, it’s just ‘calories in, versus calories out.’   A calorie is a calorie, is a calorie.  The zoo animals are sedentary, not having to work for their food.  In the wild, they’d have to work for their food, climbing trees, to find fruits that were smaller and less sweet, and tougher to digest.
Your source on this says it’s a recent phenomenon. Have zoo animals discovered you tube and cable TV in the last 20 years? 

You’re actually arguing with yourself again. And your source.

So, fruit is sweeter but it doesn’t matter because calories are all that matter and the zookeepers are wrong. That’s what you’re saying


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You still have difficulties in reading comprehension.  The zoo was offering their animals a variety of foods, including fruit, and the animals were preferentially selecting the fruit, some varieties of which incidentally have become sweeter recently by selective breeding.  Some of the animals are becoming obese as a result of their consuming more calories than they expend, added to the fact that they’re sedentary compared to their wild relatives, is probably setting them up for chronic disease.

The dietary guidelines for zoo animals are not the same as those for humans.  And they can change.  Eating fruit is good for humans, with considerable health benefits.  Americans and Australians aren’t becoming overweight or obese because they’re eating fruit.  The majority aren’t eating even the recommended minimum in the guidelines, instead consuming far too much sugar and fruit juices.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #108 on: September 30, 2018, 09:02:02 PM »
You still have difficulties in reading comprehension.  The zoo was offering their animals a variety of foods, including fruit, and the animals were preferentially selecting the fruit, some varieties of which incidentally have become sweeter recently by selective breeding.  Some of the animals are becoming obese as a result of their consuming more calories than they expend, added to the fact that they’re sedentary compared to their wild relatives, is probably setting them up for chronic disease.

No. That's not what the article said at all. There was no mention of calories whatsoever. Reading comprehension doesn't include reading words not in the article and adding your own ideas.
Quote
The dietary guidelines for zoo animals are not the same as those for humans.  And they can change.  Eating fruit is good for humans, with considerable health benefits.  Americans and Australians aren’t becoming overweight or obese because they’re eating fruit.  The majority aren’t eating even the recommended minimum in the guidelines, instead consuming far too much sugar and fruit juices.

False, false, and false.  Consuming fruit, in excess, is just as bad (if not worse) for humans as it is for animals.

Although I can't say about Australia, most people's diets in the US actually match what the USDA guidelines have said for years. (The latest guidelines are a mess, but prior guidelines certainly, and the 2018 guidelines haven't been in effect long enough to make any difference).

And even as far as consuming too much, the guidelines don't tell you how much to eat, beyond meeting your basic requirements based on your weight, and most people do that.

Until the latest version the USDA guidelines did not limit sugar or fruit juices, and the high consumption of sugar in the US was well within
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I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #109 on: September 30, 2018, 10:43:31 PM »
You still have difficulties in reading comprehension.  The zoo was offering their animals a variety of foods, including fruit, and the animals were preferentially selecting the fruit, some varieties of which incidentally have become sweeter recently by selective breeding.  Some of the animals are becoming obese as a result of their consuming more calories than they expend, added to the fact that they’re sedentary compared to their wild relatives, is probably setting them up for chronic disease.

No. That's not what the article said at all. There was no mention of calories whatsoever. Reading comprehension doesn't include reading words not in the article and adding your own ideas.
Quote
The dietary guidelines for zoo animals are not the same as those for humans.  And they can change.  Eating fruit is good for humans, with considerable health benefits.  Americans and Australians aren’t becoming overweight or obese because they’re eating fruit.  The majority aren’t eating even the recommended minimum in the guidelines, instead consuming far too much sugar and fruit juices.

False, false, and false.  Consuming fruit, in excess, is just as bad (if not worse) for humans as it is for animals.

Although I can't say about Australia, most people's diets in the US actually match what the USDA guidelines have said for years. (The latest guidelines are a mess, but prior guidelines certainly, and the 2018 guidelines haven't been in effect long enough to make any difference).

And even as far as consuming too much, the guidelines don't tell you how much to eat, beyond meeting your basic requirements based on your weight, and most people do that.

Until the latest version the USDA guidelines did not limit sugar or fruit juices, and the high consumption of sugar in the US was well within

People (and other animals) become overweight or obese because they eat food containing more calories than they expend.  It’s such an obvious fact that it doesn’t need to be mentioned, along with the fact that there’s an evolutionary drive to seek out sugar, a rare item naturally, as a calorie rich energy source.

Denying this doesn’t make your belief that there are foods that are going to make you fat regardless of calories true.  Or even plausible.

Willett noted that the 2015-20 guidelines are far better than previous ones, getting closer to what the science actually indicates, with previous editions having food producers being able to edit the guidelines, removing a recommendation to reduce animal-based foods and replacing it with one to eat lean meat instead.

But the 2015-20 guidelines did include sections on how Americans were matching the recommended guidelines of previous reports, and only about half were managing to reach even the minimum recommendation for fruit and vegetables.

The guidelines include 1.  Follow a healthy eating pattern across the lifespan.  All food and beverage choices matter.  Choose a healthy eating pattern at an appropriate calorie level to help achieve and maintain a healthy body weight, support nutrient adequacy, and reduce the risk of chronic disease (page xii). 

This is exactly what I’ve been saying all along.  Don’t be overweight.  Bathroom scales are more useful than kitchen scales.  Don’t put on weight and body fat as you age.  If you think this is normal or desirable, then you’re setting yourself for a lifetime of increased risk for chronic disease.

But they’re guidelines, not compulsory commandments.  You’re not going to be dragged off by the secret police to the gulag if you break them.  You don’t get to replace them with guidelines suited to your preferred diet just because you don’t like them.  I cheerfully break many of the guidelines, including consuming considerably more than the recommended quantity of bread, fruit and vegetables, but without harm, because I manage to meet Willett’s two most fundamental bases of the Harvard pyramid - not being overweight and exercising daily.

But I’ve read the guidelines.  They’re entirely sensible.  We’d be better off if more people followed them.  As Willett has noted, one reason why diets work is because they make the person think about the food being eaten.  The guidelines do exactly the same thing - make the person think before eating.  The trouble is - most people don’t.

Or as I also put it - people are overweight or obese because of a lifetime of bad habits.  They need to get rid of the bad habits and replace them with good habits. ‘Special’ diets are a way of doing this, and the best diets are the ones that can be followed for years and decades.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #110 on: October 01, 2018, 04:43:12 AM »
We really needed another one of these threads?

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #111 on: October 01, 2018, 04:46:39 AM »
We really needed another one of these threads?

Unfortunately, yes we do.  People who are driven by ideology and live in an echo chamber populated by ideologues, such as CarbShark, need to be challenged concerning their nonsense whenever they surface.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #112 on: October 01, 2018, 02:20:54 PM »
This thread, well, escalated. I truly hope that Steve sees it an writes an appropriate blogpost. :steve: ;)
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Online CarbShark

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Re: Any science-based article summarizing a healthy diet?
« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2018, 03:31:45 PM »
This thread, well, escalated. I truly hope that Steve sees it an writes an appropriate blogpost. :steve: ;)

I don't think Steve or the Rogues follow these threads. You may try emailing them if there's a topic you want them to address.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

 

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