Author Topic: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.  (Read 845 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« on: September 29, 2018, 04:05:29 PM »
There was an interesting article in this morning’s ‘the Sunday Age.’  The Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) zoo has been forced to remove fruit from the diet of many of their animals, because they’re becoming too obese.  Owing to thousands of years of selective breeding, fruit has become too sweet and sugary.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-says-fruit-s-too-sweet-for-its-monkey-menu-20180928-p506lb.html

There’s no returning to the diet eaten by humans before the agricultural revolution, if there was a single diet (which there wasn’t).  Everything we eat has been genetically modified.



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Offline CarbShark

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2018, 04:55:05 PM »
There was an interesting article in this morning’s ‘the Sunday Age.’  The Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) zoo has been forced to remove fruit from the diet of many of their animals, because they’re becoming too obese.  Owing to thousands of years of selective breeding, fruit has become too sweet and sugary.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-says-fruit-s-too-sweet-for-its-monkey-menu-20180928-p506lb.html

There’s no returning to the diet eaten by humans before the agricultural revolution, if there was a single diet (which there wasn’t).  Everything we eat has been genetically modified.

You don't understand the Paleo diet. The points you are making were raised years ago by Cordain himself.

There are two main aspects of the Paleo Diet and neither one involves eating the diet eaten by humans before the advent of agriculture. Nor is there any notion that there was a single diet consumed by pre-agriculture humans.


The first aspect is to avoid the kinds of foods that were not widely consumed or widely available before the advent of agriculture. This includes nearly all processed foods; nearly all grains; sugar; dairy; most cultivated plants.

The second aspect is to favor the kinds of foods that were widely consumed by pre-agriculture humans in roughly the proportions they were consumed. Not the exact same foods, but foods of the general type.

The bulk of this food is meat and other animal products. Some fruits and vegetables, similar to the types available then. During the paleo era, those were mostly consumed in season only.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2018, 05:21:27 PM »
There was an interesting article in this morning’s ‘the Sunday Age.’  The Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) zoo has been forced to remove fruit from the diet of many of their animals, because they’re becoming too obese.  Owing to thousands of years of selective breeding, fruit has become too sweet and sugary.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-says-fruit-s-too-sweet-for-its-monkey-menu-20180928-p506lb.html

There’s no returning to the diet eaten by humans before the agricultural revolution, if there was a single diet (which there wasn’t).  Everything we eat has been genetically modified.

You don't understand the Paleo diet. The points you are making were raised years ago by Cordain himself.

There are two main aspects of the Paleo Diet and neither one involves eating the diet eaten by humans before the advent of agriculture. Nor is there any notion that there was a single diet consumed by pre-agriculture humans.


The first aspect is to avoid the kinds of foods that were not widely consumed or widely available before the advent of agriculture. This includes nearly all processed foods; nearly all grains; sugar; dairy; most cultivated plants.

The second aspect is to favor the kinds of foods that were widely consumed by pre-agriculture humans in roughly the proportions they were consumed. Not the exact same foods, but foods of the general type.

The bulk of this food is meat and other animal products. Some fruits and vegetables, similar to the types available then. During the paleo era, those were mostly consumed in season only.

Well, you don’t understand what humans were actually eating in pre-agricultural times.  They were hunter-gatherers, not just hunters.  Plant-based food from the gatherer part supplied a major part of the diet, and the plant-based food of the time is just not available anymore.  They’ve been extensively modified or replaced by other foods.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2018, 08:04:24 PM »
There was an interesting article in this morning’s ‘the Sunday Age.’  The Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) zoo has been forced to remove fruit from the diet of many of their animals, because they’re becoming too obese.  Owing to thousands of years of selective breeding, fruit has become too sweet and sugary.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-says-fruit-s-too-sweet-for-its-monkey-menu-20180928-p506lb.html

There’s no returning to the diet eaten by humans before the agricultural revolution, if there was a single diet (which there wasn’t).  Everything we eat has been genetically modified.

You don't understand the Paleo diet. The points you are making were raised years ago by Cordain himself.

There are two main aspects of the Paleo Diet and neither one involves eating the diet eaten by humans before the advent of agriculture. Nor is there any notion that there was a single diet consumed by pre-agriculture humans.


The first aspect is to avoid the kinds of foods that were not widely consumed or widely available before the advent of agriculture. This includes nearly all processed foods; nearly all grains; sugar; dairy; most cultivated plants.

The second aspect is to favor the kinds of foods that were widely consumed by pre-agriculture humans in roughly the proportions they were consumed. Not the exact same foods, but foods of the general type.

The bulk of this food is meat and other animal products. Some fruits and vegetables, similar to the types available then. During the paleo era, those were mostly consumed in season only.

Well, you don’t understand what humans were actually eating in pre-agricultural times.  They were hunter-gatherers, not just hunters.  Plant-based food from the gatherer part supplied a major part of the diet, and the plant-based food of the time is just not available anymore.  They’ve been extensively modified or replaced by other foods.

Source?

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2018, 08:23:36 PM »
There was an interesting article in this morning’s ‘the Sunday Age.’  The Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) zoo has been forced to remove fruit from the diet of many of their animals, because they’re becoming too obese.  Owing to thousands of years of selective breeding, fruit has become too sweet and sugary.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-says-fruit-s-too-sweet-for-its-monkey-menu-20180928-p506lb.html

There’s no returning to the diet eaten by humans before the agricultural revolution, if there was a single diet (which there wasn’t).  Everything we eat has been genetically modified.

You don't understand the Paleo diet. The points you are making were raised years ago by Cordain himself.

There are two main aspects of the Paleo Diet and neither one involves eating the diet eaten by humans before the advent of agriculture. Nor is there any notion that there was a single diet consumed by pre-agriculture humans.


The first aspect is to avoid the kinds of foods that were not widely consumed or widely available before the advent of agriculture. This includes nearly all processed foods; nearly all grains; sugar; dairy; most cultivated plants.

The second aspect is to favor the kinds of foods that were widely consumed by pre-agriculture humans in roughly the proportions they were consumed. Not the exact same foods, but foods of the general type.

The bulk of this food is meat and other animal products. Some fruits and vegetables, similar to the types available then. During the paleo era, those were mostly consumed in season only.

Well, you don’t understand what humans were actually eating in pre-agricultural times.  They were hunter-gatherers, not just hunters.  Plant-based food from the gatherer part supplied a major part of the diet, and the plant-based food of the time is just not available anymore.  They’ve been extensively modified or replaced by other foods.

Source?

The Australian Aborigines maintained their hunter-gatherer lifestyle into modern times.  Burke and Wills managed to starve to death in the midst of plenty in 1861 on Coopers Creek, after seeing and being fed nardoo bread by the local Aboriginal tribe (the bread is prepared from a flour from the seed pods of the nardoo, a type of rush, which required a lot of preparation, since nardoo is pretty toxic, not even livestock will eat it unless very, very desperate).  Nardoo bread was a staple food of the Aborigines.  Burke and Wills managed to antagonise the Aborigines, and were forced to prepare it themselves, and they omitted a key step - and the rest is history.

But anyway.  The Australian Aboriginal pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers relied heavily on plant-based foods, such as nardoo.  You can’t get nardoo bread nowadays.  There are better, less toxic breads available nowadays, which don’t require so much processing (it took hours to make the nardoo flour non-toxic).

Hunter-gatherers ate a wide variety of foods, depending on what was available.   The Inuit for example would also eat berries, grass, kelp, etc when in season.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2018, 09:02:39 PM »
There was an interesting article in this morning’s ‘the Sunday Age.’  The Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) zoo has been forced to remove fruit from the diet of many of their animals, because they’re becoming too obese.  Owing to thousands of years of selective breeding, fruit has become too sweet and sugary.

There’s no returning to the diet eaten by humans before the agricultural revolution, if there was a single diet (which there wasn’t).  Everything we eat has been genetically modified.

You don't understand the Paleo diet. The points you are making were raised years ago by Cordain himself.

There are two main aspects of the Paleo Diet and neither one involves eating the diet eaten by humans before the advent of agriculture. Nor is there any notion that there was a single diet consumed by pre-agriculture humans.


The first aspect is to avoid the kinds of foods that were not widely consumed or widely available before the advent of agriculture. This includes nearly all processed foods; nearly all grains; sugar; dairy; most cultivated plants.

The second aspect is to favor the kinds of foods that were widely consumed by pre-agriculture humans in roughly the proportions they were consumed. Not the exact same foods, but foods of the general type.

The bulk of this food is meat and other animal products. Some fruits and vegetables, similar to the types available then. During the paleo era, those were mostly consumed in season only.

Well, you don’t understand what humans were actually eating in pre-agricultural times.  They were hunter-gatherers, not just hunters.  Plant-based food from the gatherer part supplied a major part of the diet, and the plant-based food of the time is just not available anymore.  They’ve been extensively modified or replaced by other foods.

Source?

The Australian Aborigines maintained their hunter-gatherer lifestyle into modern times.  Burke and Wills managed to starve to death in the midst of plenty in 1861 on Coopers Creek, after seeing and being fed nardoo bread by the local Aboriginal tribe (the bread is prepared from a flour from the seed pods of the nardoo, a type of rush, which required a lot of preparation, since nardoo is pretty toxic, not even livestock will eat it unless very, very desperate).  Nardoo bread was a staple food of the Aborigines.  Burke and Wills managed to antagonise the Aborigines, and were forced to prepare it themselves, and they omitted a key step - and the rest is history.

But anyway.  The Australian Aboriginal pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers relied heavily on plant-based foods, such as nardoo.  You can’t get nardoo bread nowadays.  There are better, less toxic breads available nowadays, which don’t require so much processing (it took hours to make the nardoo flour non-toxic).

Hunter-gatherers ate a wide variety of foods, depending on what was available.   The Inuit for example would also eat berries, grass, kelp, etc when in season.

No source for any of that?
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2018, 09:20:38 PM »
There was an interesting article in this morning’s ‘the Sunday Age.’  The Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) zoo has been forced to remove fruit from the diet of many of their animals, because they’re becoming too obese.  Owing to thousands of years of selective breeding, fruit has become too sweet and sugary.

There’s no returning to the diet eaten by humans before the agricultural revolution, if there was a single diet (which there wasn’t).  Everything we eat has been genetically modified.

You don't understand the Paleo diet. The points you are making were raised years ago by Cordain himself.

There are two main aspects of the Paleo Diet and neither one involves eating the diet eaten by humans before the advent of agriculture. Nor is there any notion that there was a single diet consumed by pre-agriculture humans.


The first aspect is to avoid the kinds of foods that were not widely consumed or widely available before the advent of agriculture. This includes nearly all processed foods; nearly all grains; sugar; dairy; most cultivated plants.

The second aspect is to favor the kinds of foods that were widely consumed by pre-agriculture humans in roughly the proportions they were consumed. Not the exact same foods, but foods of the general type.

The bulk of this food is meat and other animal products. Some fruits and vegetables, similar to the types available then. During the paleo era, those were mostly consumed in season only.

Well, you don’t understand what humans were actually eating in pre-agricultural times.  They were hunter-gatherers, not just hunters.  Plant-based food from the gatherer part supplied a major part of the diet, and the plant-based food of the time is just not available anymore.  They’ve been extensively modified or replaced by other foods.

Source?

The Australian Aborigines maintained their hunter-gatherer lifestyle into modern times.  Burke and Wills managed to starve to death in the midst of plenty in 1861 on Coopers Creek, after seeing and being fed nardoo bread by the local Aboriginal tribe (the bread is prepared from a flour from the seed pods of the nardoo, a type of rush, which required a lot of preparation, since nardoo is pretty toxic, not even livestock will eat it unless very, very desperate).  Nardoo bread was a staple food of the Aborigines.  Burke and Wills managed to antagonise the Aborigines, and were forced to prepare it themselves, and they omitted a key step - and the rest is history.

But anyway.  The Australian Aboriginal pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers relied heavily on plant-based foods, such as nardoo.  You can’t get nardoo bread nowadays.  There are better, less toxic breads available nowadays, which don’t require so much processing (it took hours to make the nardoo flour non-toxic).

Hunter-gatherers ate a wide variety of foods, depending on what was available.   The Inuit for example would also eat berries, grass, kelp, etc when in season.

No source for any of that?

Peter Fitzsimmons published a book with the eponymous title ‘Burke and Wills’ discussing it this year.  Also published this year was ‘She Has Her Mother’s Laugh’ by Carl Zimmer, which has a chapter on cultural inheritance and the teaching and learning in hunter-gatherer societies in finding and preparing plant-based foods (which is a pleasure to read) started with an account of the Burke and Wills expedition.

I didn’t provide any source for my previous comment because there’s a plethora of sources, it’s well known and very, very easy to find.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2018, 11:38:15 AM »
What proportion of caloric intake did pre-western (hunter-gatherers) Aborigines get from Animal sources vs. plant source? What percentage of their diet was carbs vs. fat?
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2018, 12:13:28 PM »
What proportion of caloric intake did pre-western (hunter-gatherers) Aborigines get from Animal sources vs. plant source? What percentage of their diet was carbs vs. fat?

Who knows?  It’s difficult getting a handle on what proportion people in developed countries get from carbohydrates versus fats with large data bases of nutrient contents of food items and very time efficient computer based Apps to make the calculation easier, so how would anyone know definitely the figures for hunter gatherers in pre-agricultural societies, who were eating a wide variety of foods, both plant and animal based, when available?

The fact remains.  The Australian Aborigines did have nardoo bread as a staple part of their diet, which like most plant-based foods is high in carbohydrates.  Not very high in protein or fat.  And like most plant-based foods, pretty toxic unless properly prepared (plants generally exist for their benefit, not animals, and have evolved very effective defence mechanisms to defend themselves against predation by animals with mechanisms such as poison.  Even plants which appear to give animals gifts of nectar or fruit, do it for their benefit in dispersing pollen from lowers or seeds in fruit, and they do it grudgingly providing the minimum.  Humans have selectively bred their food sources for thousands of years so that the original ones are just not available anymore.  Plant foods are far less toxic.  Fruits are larger, softer and sweeter.  Meat animals are domesticated, and bred to be fatter and less lean).

How do you know whether the Paleo diet reflects what any hunter-gatherer society actually ate at any time of the year?
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2018, 05:22:20 PM »
What proportion of caloric intake did pre-western (hunter-gatherers) Aborigines get from Animal sources vs. plant source? What percentage of their diet was carbs vs. fat?

Who knows?  It’s difficult getting a handle on what proportion people in developed countries get from carbohydrates versus fats with large data bases of nutrient contents of food items and very time efficient computer based Apps to make the calculation easier,

Another false unsupported statement.

Quote

so how would anyone know definitely the figures for hunter gatherers in pre-agricultural societies, who were eating a wide variety of foods, both plant and animal based, when available?

There is a lot of evidence. From Stone Age campsites and remains; more recent and contemporary hunter gatherer populations.

Quote
The fact remains.  The Australian Aborigines did have nardoo bread as a staple part of their diet, which like most plant-based foods is high in carbohydrates. 

Right and they also had ample animal sources of fat and protein.

Quote

How do you know whether the Paleo diet reflects what any hunter-gatherer society actually ate at any time of the year?

Science



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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: The inherent fallacy of the natural Paleo diet.
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2018, 08:01:54 PM »
What proportion of caloric intake did pre-western (hunter-gatherers) Aborigines get from Animal sources vs. plant source? What percentage of their diet was carbs vs. fat?

Who knows?  It’s difficult getting a handle on what proportion people in developed countries get from carbohydrates versus fats with large data bases of nutrient contents of food items and very time efficient computer based Apps to make the calculation easier,


Another false unsupported statement.

This problem was highlighted in Willett’s book ‘Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy.’

Quote

so how would anyone know definitely the figures for hunter gatherers in pre-agricultural societies, who were eating a wide variety of foods, both plant and animal based, when available?

There is a lot of evidence. From Stone Age campsites and remains; more recent and contemporary hunter gatherer populations.

Which reflect averages over long periods of time.

Quote
The fact remains.  The Australian Aborigines did have nardoo bread as a staple part of their diet, which like most plant-based foods is high in carbohydrates. 

Right and they also had ample animal sources of fat and protein.

I never asserted that they weren’t eating animal-based foods.  They were also eating plenty of plant-based foods rich in carbohydrates.

Quote

How do you know whether the Paleo diet reflects what any hunter-gatherer society actually ate at any time of the year?

Science

The food they were eating no longer exists.



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