Author Topic: Where is the line on homophobia  (Read 5469 times)

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2018, 03:39:53 PM »
No idea how many times people had to point this out to me before it finally clicked and I started to look at things a bit differently but people stuck with me so Im going to keep trying:

1- Making light of homophobia isnt a great way to make non straight people feel like we take them and their issues seriously. It goes for all groups that could be discriminated against really, but while it does feel great to elicit a chuckle, maybe consider not sending out that vibe?

(click to show/hide)
I have a broader question regarding your first point.  There is potential value in ridiculing bad ideas though(in this case, making light of homophobia.)  Ridicule could serve to marginalize such ideas.

Ridicule it, fine. But the "they're secretly gay" thing is just attacking them by trying to make being gay a bad thing. If these people are secretly gay, then using that as the attack just further stigmatizes it; it says that it is a bad thing because that's how you chose to attack them, the same way that trying to root through someone's family tree to find a no white ancestor is just confirming to them that you agree that having a black ancestor is shameful. Especially when it goes into associating gay men with kink culture as a negative (e.g. "the only thing stopping them from full-on bukkake show crap...") is continuing to perpetuate negative stereotypes.

As a general rule anything uttered after the words "Like Joe Rogan says" is more likely to be harmful than not.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2018, 03:48:26 PM »
No idea how many times people had to point this out to me before it finally clicked and I started to look at things a bit differently but people stuck with me so Im going to keep trying:

1- Making light of homophobia isnt a great way to make non straight people feel like we take them and their issues seriously. It goes for all groups that could be discriminated against really, but while it does feel great to elicit a chuckle, maybe consider not sending out that vibe?

(click to show/hide)
I have a broader question regarding your first point.  There is potential value in ridiculing bad ideas though(in this case, making light of homophobia.)  Ridicule could serve to marginalize such ideas.
I do see what your saying, but it often depemds on how the ridicule is targeted and pulled off.
Its a narrow margin and easier to miss than hit if we look at satires that historically had the reverse effect due to how fucking stupid the targets were.
The best pro war movies are anti war movies and so on.

So it seems to more often than not be an act of ego to try and take them on in that way and I think thats a big risk with someone elses money for the kudos of having got a laugh when you could have just said what the problem is.

For this specifically though, I dont think that having a goof with puns is really tearing down any barriers but could maybe create some that we may not even see due to our lack of life experience dealing with these issues.

Now Im sure that some LGBT folks might come and join in, but I know others who wouldnt. Im not speaking for anyone, just a reminder that are discussions are not in a vacuum. An alternate perspective rather than a rant.

Offline Calinthalus

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2018, 04:42:09 PM »
No idea how many times people had to point this out to me before it finally clicked and I started to look at things a bit differently but people stuck with me so Im going to keep trying:

1- Making light of homophobia isnt a great way to make non straight people feel like we take them and their issues seriously. It goes for all groups that could be discriminated against really, but while it does feel great to elicit a chuckle, maybe consider not sending out that vibe?

(click to show/hide)
I have a broader question regarding your first point.  There is potential value in ridiculing bad ideas though(in this case, making light of homophobia.)  Ridicule could serve to marginalize such ideas.

Ridicule it, fine. But the "they're secretly gay" thing is just attacking them by trying to make being gay a bad thing. If these people are secretly gay, then using that as the attack just further stigmatizes it; it says that it is a bad thing because that's how you chose to attack them, the same way that trying to root through someone's family tree to find a no white ancestor is just confirming to them that you agree that having a black ancestor is shameful. Especially when it goes into associating gay men with kink culture as a negative (e.g. "the only thing stopping them from full-on bukkake show crap...") is continuing to perpetuate negative stereotypes.

As a general rule anything uttered after the words "Like Joe Rogan says" is more likely to be harmful than not.
I really thought we were going to leave this argument behind.


I never said bukkake was a bad thing (beyond not even vaguely being strictly a gay man kink).  I'm fine with it, as long as everyone of any gender is consenting.  My point is that they are just hypocrites ashamed of themselves when they shouldn't be.  But, whatever, keep telling me what I mean. 
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2018, 04:55:47 PM »
No one is telling you what you mean.

You are being told how the implications of what you said can contribute to an atmosphere that reinforces homophobic sentiment in the way that it is still something that elicits a smirk.
You are free to not care about that, but dont expect people to not point it out or LGBT folks to not take offense at the unintended implication.

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2018, 05:06:13 PM »
No idea how many times people had to point this out to me before it finally clicked and I started to look at things a bit differently but people stuck with me so Im going to keep trying:

1- Making light of homophobia isnt a great way to make non straight people feel like we take them and their issues seriously. It goes for all groups that could be discriminated against really, but while it does feel great to elicit a chuckle, maybe consider not sending out that vibe?

(click to show/hide)
I have a broader question regarding your first point.  There is potential value in ridiculing bad ideas though(in this case, making light of homophobia.)  Ridicule could serve to marginalize such ideas.

Ridicule it, fine. But the "they're secretly gay" thing is just attacking them by trying to make being gay a bad thing. If these people are secretly gay, then using that as the attack just further stigmatizes it; it says that it is a bad thing because that's how you chose to attack them, the same way that trying to root through someone's family tree to find a no white ancestor is just confirming to them that you agree that having a black ancestor is shameful. Especially when it goes into associating gay men with kink culture as a negative (e.g. "the only thing stopping them from full-on bukkake show crap...") is continuing to perpetuate negative stereotypes.

As a general rule anything uttered after the words "Like Joe Rogan says" is more likely to be harmful than not.
I really thought we were going to leave this argument behind.


I never said bukkake was a bad thing (beyond not even vaguely being strictly a gay man kink).  I'm fine with it, as long as everyone of any gender is consenting.  My point is that they are just hypocrites ashamed of themselves when they shouldn't be.  But, whatever, keep telling me what I mean.

I'm not telling you what you mean. It's perfectly possible for you to have only good intentions while continuing to propogate homophobia unintentionally. I suspect you know that, which is why you responded by clarifying that you didn't say bukkake was bad or only gay. I suspect you know I didn't claim you had either. I suspect focusing in on those two things and ignoring all the rest was perfectly intentional, but only you know for sure. I'm telling you that regardless of your intentions, you are still propagating those stereotypes and validating homophobia.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2018, 07:14:59 PM »
No, I'd just laugh at their ignorance.

Personally I don't find the kind of homophobic ignorance under discussion particularly funny. But to each their own, I guess.
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Offline superdave

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2018, 07:48:35 PM »
this thread just reminded me.  I was watching the SNL 25 anniversary special which is from like 1998 or so and was really struck but how homophobic it was.  It was probably the first time I felt that way about something I remembered watching when it was new.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2018, 08:48:17 PM »
this thread just reminded me.  I was watching the SNL 25 anniversary special which is from like 1998 or so and was really struck but how homophobic it was.  It was probably the first time I felt that way about something I remembered watching when it was new.

Friends, Scrubs, and even my beloved Psych don't hold up super great either. We came a long way in a short while.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2018, 08:51:43 PM »
this thread just reminded me.  I was watching the SNL 25 anniversary special which is from like 1998 or so and was really struck but how homophobic it was.  It was probably the first time I felt that way about something I remembered watching when it was new.

Friends, Scrubs, and even my beloved Psych don't hold up super great either. We came a long way in a short while.

Not to mention classics like Benny Hill and even Monty Python (No poofters!).
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Offline Calinthalus

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2018, 09:47:24 PM »
No one is telling you what you mean.

You are being told how the implications of what you said can contribute to an atmosphere that reinforces homophobic sentiment in the way that it is still something that elicits a smirk.
You are free to not care about that, but dont expect people to not point it out or LGBT folks to not take offense at the unintended implication.
I was not being told that...I was being told to fuck off.  There's a pretty big difference in reception between the two.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2018, 06:21:13 AM »
No one is telling you what you mean.

You are being told how the implications of what you said can contribute to an atmosphere that reinforces homophobic sentiment in the way that it is still something that elicits a smirk.
You are free to not care about that, but dont expect people to not point it out or LGBT folks to not take offense at the unintended implication.
I was not being told that...I was being told to fuck off.  There's a pretty big difference in reception between the two.
'Fuck off with x' is very common intenet parlance for rejecting an idea.
Much like 'Get outta here'

Edit- Not that I could blame someone for getting pissed off with a trope that is directly offensive to them and just wont die.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 06:28:52 AM by Harry Black »

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2018, 09:18:58 AM »
this thread just reminded me.  I was watching the SNL 25 anniversary special which is from like 1998 or so and was really struck but how homophobic it was.  It was probably the first time I felt that way about something I remembered watching when it was new.

Friends, Scrubs, and even my beloved Psych don't hold up super great either. We came a long way in a short while.
I think this is something that is often underrated.

Offline superdave

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2018, 09:21:42 AM »
this thread just reminded me.  I was watching the SNL 25 anniversary special which is from like 1998 or so and was really struck but how homophobic it was.  It was probably the first time I felt that way about something I remembered watching when it was new.

Friends, Scrubs, and even my beloved Psych don't hold up super great either. We came a long way in a short while.

Not to mention classics like Benny Hill and even Monty Python (No poofters!).

but those are from before I was born so they might as well be 1000 years old.  Friends is still "new" to me.
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Offline mindme

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2018, 11:08:53 AM »
I've heard it mentioned, but I've never seen text to verify, that Carl Sagan was quite against gay people and gay rights. Usually people note product of his time (say 1980s) and probably would have a very different opinion today if he were still alive.

Wait. Edit. Here's something.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/carl-sagan-john-derbyshire/
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Offline RGU

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Re: Where is the line on homophobia
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2018, 11:35:52 AM »
I've heard it mentioned, but I've never seen text to verify, that Carl Sagan was quite against gay people and gay rights. Usually people note product of his time (say 1980s) and probably would have a very different opinion today if he were still alive.

Wait. Edit. Here's something.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/carl-sagan-john-derbyshire/

Honestly - who cares?
You can not hold people of the past to today's moral standards.