Author Topic: Episode #691  (Read 1156 times)

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Offline Steven Novella

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Episode #691
« on: October 06, 2018, 10:33:39 AM »
Forgotten Superhero of Science: Eunice Newton Foote
News Items: Nobel Prizes in Medicine, Physics, and Chemistry, Survey on New Age Beliefs
Who's That Noisy
Your Questions and E-mails: Traumatic Memory
Science or Fiction
Steven Novella
Host, The Skeptics Guide
snovella@theness.com

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2018, 09:47:02 PM »
Just finished the book, both the Kindle and audiobook versions.  Both are equally good.

Regarding the Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations.  There is a third possibility - Christine Ford could be accurately remembering the particulars of the attempted rape, but misremembered the perpetrator.  There was a case where a woman was raped, and misidentified the perpetrator based on a resemblance of the suspect to someone she saw on television at around the same time, who was convicted largely on the 100% conviction of the victim that he was the perpetrator.  Christine Ford could have suffered the attempted rape and then seen Kavanaugh, and combined the two memories.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2018, 10:53:47 AM »
I loved the discussion that followed the Pew survey about the skeptical movement and the atheist movement, it is one that I will re-listen to. I agree with what was stated. Yes, the goal (one of them, at least) of the skeptical movement is to provide people with tools of science and critical thinking, rather than to focus on a single point of belief, like theism as the atheist movement does. But as they also said, the atheist movement has its place, and does good work. Skepticism however is more inclusive by nature as it focuses on methods, not beliefs.

Also, I don't understand why Steve thinks that the self-identified agnostics in the poll don't understand what agnosticism is. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing inherent in the definition of agnosticism that precludes New Age beliefs.

Offline PabloHoney

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2018, 07:43:05 PM »
Just finished the book, both the Kindle and audiobook versions.  Both are equally good.

Regarding the Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations.  There is a third possibility - Christine Ford could be accurately remembering the particulars of the attempted rape, but misremembered the perpetrator.  There was a case where a woman was raped, and misidentified the perpetrator based on a resemblance of the suspect to someone she saw on television at around the same time, who was convicted largely on the 100% conviction of the victim that he was the perpetrator.  Christine Ford could have suffered the attempted rape and then seen Kavanaugh, and combined the two memories.

Highly unlikely - she knew Kavanaugh ahead of time. 

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2018, 08:25:49 PM »
Just finished the book, both the Kindle and audiobook versions.  Both are equally good.

Regarding the Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations.  There is a third possibility - Christine Ford could be accurately remembering the particulars of the attempted rape, but misremembered the perpetrator.  There was a case where a woman was raped, and misidentified the perpetrator based on a resemblance of the suspect to someone she saw on television at around the same time, who was convicted largely on the 100% conviction of the victim that he was the perpetrator.  Christine Ford could have suffered the attempted rape and then seen Kavanaugh, and combined the two memories.

How well did she know him beforehand?  She’s 2 years younger, and in a different class.  She might have known him from sight.  The trouble is that memory is malleable.  People recounting how they first heard of 9/11 give different accounts above whom they were with when they heard about it, including insisting someone was present when he wasn’t.

But anyway.  It’s only possibility.  If Trump nominated him, and the Republicans supported him, then by definition he shouldn’t have been considered.

Highly unlikely - she knew Kavanaugh ahead of time.

Offline DrPat

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 02:27:55 PM »
Forgotten Superhero of Science: Eunice Newton Foote
News Items: Nobel Prizes in Medicine, Physics, and Chemistry, Survey on New Age Beliefs
Who's That Noisy
Your Questions and E-mails: Traumatic Memory
Science or Fiction


On the subject of women in science, there is a wonderful article on Smithsonian Magazine online.  10 Historic Female Scientists (None of them are Marie Curie)

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ten-historic-female-scientists-you-should-know-84028788/

Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 02:38:42 AM »
Forgotten Superhero of Science: Eunice Newton Foote
News Items: Nobel Prizes in Medicine, Physics, and Chemistry, Survey on New Age Beliefs
Who's That Noisy
Your Questions and E-mails: Traumatic Memory
Science or Fiction


On the subject of women in science, there is a wonderful article on Smithsonian Magazine online.  10 Historic Female Scientists (None of them are Marie Curie)

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ten-historic-female-scientists-you-should-know-84028788/

Bob has had 7 of the 10 on 'Forgotten Superheroes of Science'. If he sees that list he will use the other 3  ;)

None of them are Marie Curie, but one is her daughter Irène Joliot-Curie

Offline mmortal03

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 04:53:50 AM »
Just finished the book, both the Kindle and audiobook versions.  Both are equally good.

Regarding the Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations.  There is a third possibility - Christine Ford could be accurately remembering the particulars of the attempted rape, but misremembered the perpetrator.  There was a case where a woman was raped, and misidentified the perpetrator based on a resemblance of the suspect to someone she saw on television at around the same time, who was convicted largely on the 100% conviction of the victim that he was the perpetrator.  Christine Ford could have suffered the attempted rape and then seen Kavanaugh, and combined the two memories.

Sam Harris covered this theory with some skepticism at the beginning of his latest podcast: https://samharris.org/podcasts/139-sacred-profane/

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 03:31:01 PM »
Just finished the book, both the Kindle and audiobook versions.  Both are equally good.

Regarding the Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations.  There is a third possibility - Christine Ford could be accurately remembering the particulars of the attempted rape, but misremembered the perpetrator.  There was a case where a woman was raped, and misidentified the perpetrator based on a resemblance of the suspect to someone she saw on television at around the same time, who was convicted largely on the 100% conviction of the victim that he was the perpetrator.  Christine Ford could have suffered the attempted rape and then seen Kavanaugh, and combined the two memories.

Sam Harris covered this theory with some skepticism at the beginning of his latest podcast: https://samharris.org/podcasts/139-sacred-profane/

I’m not saying it’s certain or even probable.  I’m saying it’s possible.  I’m more inclined to believe Christine Ford than Kavanaugh, but I don’t think the evidence gets anywhere close to being strong enough to be prosecuted in a court (it’s also well beyond the statute of limitations).  But it’s sufficient to disqualify Kavanaugh as a Supreme Court judge if you believe Ford over him.  It’s a stain on his reputation.

As an Australian, I find it bizarre that Supreme Court judges have ideological and political biases - conservative or liberal (actually conservative and not so conservative).  The Australian High Court doesn’t seem to be so political (actually I would have difficulty in identifying any of its judges).

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2018, 05:24:33 PM »
Just finished the book, both the Kindle and audiobook versions.  Both are equally good.

Regarding the Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations.  There is a third possibility - Christine Ford could be accurately remembering the particulars of the attempted rape, but misremembered the perpetrator.  There was a case where a woman was raped, and misidentified the perpetrator based on a resemblance of the suspect to someone she saw on television at around the same time, who was convicted largely on the 100% conviction of the victim that he was the perpetrator.  Christine Ford could have suffered the attempted rape and then seen Kavanaugh, and combined the two memories.

The lack of any documentation or evidence makes it hard to take too seriously. If the evidence isn't good enough for a conviction, then it isn't good enough for the character assassination.

Most of the supposed feminist rage you hear on this is sarcastic white noise. Convict, or social-vigilante equivalent, based on one decades-old witness report and zero physical evidence or even corroborating witness? No one with any intelligence wants that, which means the theater of political rage over this is like two white noise machines fighting each other.

The circumstantial evidence is enough to cause concern: being a federal judge is already a prestigeous job. So why now (again, taking it at face value and ignoring the fact that it is a political puppet show).

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2018, 11:37:07 PM »
being a federal judge is already a prestigeous job. So why now

d'you suppose she was facebook stalking him like an ex all this time to see what kinda life he had?
I figure she just heard his name in the news one day and was like 'wait, are they talking about...that guy from high school?'


if there's a scale of least raped to most raped ('soft rape' is a term a friend of Doug Stanhope coined, one he uses to talk about the time his girlfriend (wife?) had sex with someone and didn't say no but wasn't into it and wanted to say no), then I can at least add the 2 cents that I know someone who was 'more raped' than the Kav accuser (it was just a hand over the mouth and nothing more, right? like attempted rape or something? I haven't followed the story intentionally), and chooses not to say anything about it. maybe one day she'll change her mind. at the age of 18 it was a 'shit happens at parties, yo' story. maybe when she's 40 she'll feel differently about it. and maybe she'll still say nothing, because, like you say, it's just her word, what are the odds it's going to be worth all the trouble trying to do anything about it?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 11:42:02 PM by GodSlayer »
Quote from: Thomas Carlyle
In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

Online Harry Black

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 10:20:27 AM »
If you intentionally havent followed the story then perhaps you should refrain from JAQing off around such a sensitive topic that affects people who post here regularly and maybe you should go and read the actual claims and story if you are uncertain. There is absolutely no logic in avoiding a story and then asking people online to fill in the gaps for you.

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 12:26:32 PM »
Sure, it is consistent with her story that by downplaying or (trying to) ignore the event, she might not have created any physical evidence. But conversely, it should be pointed out just how easy it would have been to do that. At least one of these would have probably shown up if things happened as described:

She felt as though she was almost raped and almost asphyxiated during that event, but no desire afterward to seek a physician or medical attention. She didn't show any signs of shock or trauma that anyone noticed. Never saw a counselor or therapist even once. Never told close family(?), no letters from Mom to extended family or whatever. No first-party journal log or letter that serves as documentation of her thoughts and experience immediately following. Never talked to friends about it, or ever saw anyone else that was there at the time? Dr. Ford is telling us that she has a flashbulb memory that she believes is literally a substitute for photographic (or video) recorded evidence of an event. At that age, the presumption that there were peers/witnesses of such a thing happening would have affected her social life. One would react differently in the presence of those at the party, whether or not one is even on speaking terms on them. Someone would pick up on that?

And multiply that (3x or less) for Bret himself and the other friend that was there. If they saw something like that (involuntary drunk sex/rape homicide) almost happen, odds are one of them would be traumatized too and someone would notice they shook. But otherwise, if these guys are/were immature enough to do something like that, that implies a kind of "bro" culture that I imagine would have them bragging or at least failing at subtly and once again word gets around, eventually getting to school faculty or her family/friends. (Note: the third option is that they weren't proud of it, but like her also decided they wanted to keep quiet.)

Offline GodSlayer

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2018, 05:50:30 PM »
If you intentionally havent followed the story then perhaps you should refrain from JAQing off around such a sensitive topic that affects people who post here regularly and maybe you should go and read the actual claims and story if you are uncertain. There is absolutely no logic in avoiding a story and then asking people online to fill in the gaps for you.


if you don't dispute anything I said,  there's nothing to read.
Quote from: Thomas Carlyle
In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

Online Harry Black

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Re: Episode #691
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2018, 06:11:29 PM »
If you intentionally havent followed the story then perhaps you should refrain from JAQing off around such a sensitive topic that affects people who post here regularly and maybe you should go and read the actual claims and story if you are uncertain. There is absolutely no logic in avoiding a story and then asking people online to fill in the gaps for you.


if you don't dispute anything I said,  there's nothing to read.
Its not on us to do your homework for you.