Author Topic: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates  (Read 1692 times)

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Online Morvis13

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2018, 09:23:39 AM »
The netflix exclusives i've watched have been pretty good. I'm sure there is lots of hit and miss but in the end I am likely to watch something exclusive. Disney has the money, power and marketing to pull off some exclusive content. I'm sure hulu and amazon have some as well.
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Online daniel1948

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2018, 09:26:47 AM »
Services like Amazon Prime Streaming and NetFlix streaming have a different business model than traditional studios. A studio sells the customer a movie. You pay them for a movie ticket or a physical or even digital copy of the movie. Once you buy a copy you can watch it as often as you like without paying any more. Amazon and Netflix get a steady, reliable income stream by selling you a service. You don't own anything, but you can watch any of the available content as much as you like, as long as you pay the monthly or annual fee.

They need subscribers rather than single-purchase transactions. Producing exclusive content is one way to entice people to subscribe. They don't want to lease the content to other services because their business model is built on steady subscriber income streams rather than on one-time sales.

Theft is a problem for all business. Somebody steals a book from a bookstore because he believes it's overpriced and that somehow he has a right to just take it if he doesn't like the price. Digital pirates feel they have a right to take a copy of a movie if they don't like the price of it, and they justify the theft with arguments about "big evil companies" and/or opposition to the concept of intellectual property.
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Online Calinthalus

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2018, 12:08:20 PM »

Instead of breaking off into their own services, I'd rather see content providers create add-ons for existing services.  This is something HBO has kinda embraced.  Hulu and Amazon Prime have HBO, Cinemax, Starz packages that are add-ons to the one service.  That way it's all in the app/website you normally use.  If you want GoT, you can just add HBO to your Hulu or Prime account. 


Of course, the HBO add-on is more expensive than the base Hulu package, but that's a price argument, not a delivery argument.


I pay for Netflix, Hulu (with HBO) and Amazon Prime.  I don't really watch much on Prime, but we buy from them a good bit so the shipping is nice.  I watch the DC shows on the WB app on my Roku for free (I would honestly pay for a WB add-on for Hulu if I could eliminate the commercials).


However, I will not buy CBS Interactive, so I didn't get to watch the new Star Trek.  I'm honestly not sure if I'll bother signing up for the new Disney streaming even though I really like Marvel/Star Wars content.  Again, the keeping up with all of these subscriptions is a pain in the ass.  If they offered an add-on for Hulu in the same price neighborhood as HBO I'd probably pay it.




As far as piracy goes, I'm very sympathetic.  Especially for TV shows.  If I were paying $200 a month for Cable (which I don't anymore) then my money has already gone to HBO and Cinemax etc.etc.  It's not like they're getting paid strictly based on my watching it, they are paid either way.  But if I want to watch the content I paid for on my tablet on a plane, then I'm not allowed to.  I've pirated the shit out of stuff like that.  Also, I can understand the Geoblocking argument from people overseas.  If you pay for the service, you should get the content.  The only other time I get worked up over it is older movies and TV shows that because of our shit laws in the U.S. aren't public domain but really should be.  So, I'm expected to pay $15 for a movie where half of the people that made it are currently dead...just so Columbia can make more money.  That annoys me.  Same for music really. 


Still, things are getting better as far as convenience goes so I'm happy to put my money down.
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Offline 2397

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2018, 12:25:09 PM »
They're picking up their own stuff because it gives them something that other services don't have. That's why exclusive distribution exists. If I make a movie and it comes time to sell distribution rights, I will make more money selling exclusive rights to one distributor than selling rights to all of them, because the show or movie is less valuable with each additional platform. Maybe I package it with less popular shows. If that doesn't happen, then all the streaming services also have to put in a much higher investment to also have all the movies otherwise everybody will just use the one service that has all the movies.

That's what I meant by control. They depend on controlling how you watch it and what competes with it, rather than on making the best product/service.
 
With online content and streaming, it's should be easy to determine how many people are using your content in some way, and to charge rates accordingly. Either from the streamer who gets a certain amount of their traffic because of your content, or from the end of the line customer if they're paying for it directly.

Quote
Exclusivity is the only way to make your streaming service better than the others. The product is distribution, everybody is pushing the same quality. Quality of product is the same, quality of presentation is the same, so the only factor left for instant streaming service is having an exclusive product. Same reason there's so many different kinds of cereal at the store.

I disagree, though I don't have that much experience with streaming services, because there's a lot that I don't like about them, especially the exclusivity and the geoblocking. I can't compare them by interface, search and categorization, playlists, buffering, uptime, whatever. But I would be surprised if they were all the same. If they are all the same, then that essentially says we've figured out how to make streaming services, and we don't need to get more and more of them. People shouldn't put up with how they use exclusivity to create division where it doesn't need to exist.

I have a preferred media player for video files because there are many that don't do what I want them to, or aren't as easy to configure. I actually have two versions of the same player, because the new one crashes playing old codecs. Although hoping a later update will fix that.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 12:38:19 PM by 2397 »

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2018, 12:52:34 PM »
They're picking up their own stuff because it gives them something that other services don't have. That's why exclusive distribution exists. If I make a movie and it comes time to sell distribution rights, I will make more money selling exclusive rights to one distributor than selling rights to all of them, because the show or movie is less valuable with each additional platform. Maybe I package it with less popular shows. If that doesn't happen, then all the streaming services also have to put in a much higher investment to also have all the movies otherwise everybody will just use the one service that has all the movies.

That's what I meant by control. They depend on controlling how you watch it and what competes with it, rather than on making the best product/service.
 
With online content and streaming, it's should be easy to determine how many people are using your content in some way, and to charge rates accordingly. Either from the streamer who gets a certain amount of their traffic because of your content, or from the end of the line customer if they're paying for it directly.

Quote
Exclusivity is the only way to make your streaming service better than the others. The product is distribution, everybody is pushing the same quality. Quality of product is the same, quality of presentation is the same, so the only factor left for instant streaming service is having an exclusive product. Same reason there's so many different kinds of cereal at the store.

I disagree, though I don't have that much experience with streaming services, because there's a lot that I don't like about them, especially the exclusivity and the geoblocking. I can't compare them by interface, search and categorization, playlists, buffering, uptime, whatever. But I would be surprised if they were all the same. If they are all the same, then that essentially says we've figured out how to make streaming services, and we don't need to get more and more of them. People shouldn't put up with how they use exclusivity to create division where it doesn't need to exist.

I have a preferred media player for video files because there are many that don't do what I want them to, or aren't as easy to configure. I actually have two versions of the same player, because the new one crashes playing old codecs. Although hoping a later update will fix that.

Geoblocking is another form of exclusivity. If you want distro rights for Australia, you negotiate that separately from the others.

I'm trying to explain the economics of it in really simple terms. It is not in the best interests to use a use-per-user model where everyone has access because that gets the studio less profit, and it gets each service less profit. As you say, we've mostly figured out all the delivery aspects of streaming, so the only market option left is exclusive content. If you don't have exclusive content then there's no reason to use Hulu over Netflix if they all have the same content, and they have to have the same price if they have the same content. If they all have the same content and the same price model, they will become a monopoly. You're telling yourself you want a monopoly because it would be easier to just pay for one service for $50/mo or whatever, but that's not how monpolies work. It won't behave like an oligopoly because the second there's no market advantage, Hulu and Netflix and everyone else will shut down their streaming and invest somewhere with a better distribution model.

Your problem is with profit-driven services.
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Offline stands2reason

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2018, 03:28:08 PM »
I just wish there was one place I can get all the movies on line. I would gladly pay for that. For now I have to settle for net fix and the library.

You think you want a monopoly, but you absolutely don't.

Look at what happened with streaming/cloud music. There could be some combination of studio deals to have most movies on most services. The only thing is that movies are in general very expensive and the studios want to get at least a PPV rental fee from everyone.

Online daniel1948

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2018, 03:53:17 PM »
I just wish there was one place I can get all the movies on line. I would gladly pay for that. For now I have to settle for net fix and the library.

You think you want a monopoly, but you absolutely don't.

Look at what happened with streaming/cloud music. There could be some combination of studio deals to have most movies on most services. The only thing is that movies are in general very expensive and the studios want to get at least a PPV rental fee from everyone.

Except that a company whose business model is to charge nothing for the content itself and make its money from recurring subscription fees is not going to let anyone else stream its content. The content is produced only to lure in subscribers. If you could get NetFlix exclusive content from Hulu, you would not subscribe to NetFlix. NetFlix doesn't care how many times a show is viewed. They care how many people are paying the monthly subscription fee. So they're never going to let anyone else show their content.

This is a whole different business model than the old movie studios, or music producers, both of whom charge for the content itself, and benefit from a larger number of distributors. Movie studios and music producers would like every distributor in the world to sell their product. NetFlix and Amazon Prime give you unlimited access to their product in return for a monthly subscription fee. These are two intentionally different business models and should be understood as such.
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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2018, 03:58:53 PM »
I just wish there was one place I can get all the movies on line. I would gladly pay for that. For now I have to settle for net fix and the library.

You think you want a monopoly, but you absolutely don't.

Look at what happened with streaming/cloud music. There could be some combination of studio deals to have most movies on most services. The only thing is that movies are in general very expensive and the studios want to get at least a PPV rental fee from everyone.

I want the artist to make money. I donate to podcast that I like. What I want is convenience. I have Netflix and I would get Hulu or some other services if I knew I could get all the product that I wanted. I just don't want to have to subscribe to 4 or 5 different services to get what I want. So what I end up doing is check out movies from the library. Now the artist only gets a one time bump from the sale and nothing else. On a side note I am really surprised that libraries are allowed to exist.  Most of the time people will read a book once and then will never read it again. Think of all the sales writers miss out on with people sharing books.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2018, 04:08:01 PM »
I just wish there was one place I can get all the movies on line. I would gladly pay for that. For now I have to settle for net fix and the library.

You think you want a monopoly, but you absolutely don't.

Look at what happened with streaming/cloud music. There could be some combination of studio deals to have most movies on most services. The only thing is that movies are in general very expensive and the studios want to get at least a PPV rental fee from everyone.

I want the artist to make money. I donate to podcast that I like. What I want is convenience. I have Netflix and I would get Hulu or some other services if I knew I could get all the product that I wanted. I just don't want to have to subscribe to 4 or 5 different services to get what I want. So what I end up doing is check out movies from the library. Now the artist only gets a one time bump from the sale and nothing else. On a side note I am really surprised that libraries are allowed to exist.  Most of the time people will read a book once and then will never read it again. Think of all the sales writers miss out on with people sharing books.

I understand what you're saying. I'm telling you that that way will result in either a monopoly or the displacement of the monopoly because everybody doesn't want to use the monopoly's price-setting system. It's the same reason we didn't replace every store with a Walmart that carries everything, and eliminate all the other sellers and retailers. We could have a government monopoly, but that's less profitable for everyone creating content, and you end up with some issues when people try to distribute their movies outside the system because they feel they can get more profit.

Libraries exist because the government agrees they're a public good, but they still pay licensing fees for books and especially for growing digital collections.
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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2018, 04:25:52 PM »
The death of Hollywood’s middle class
How Netflix and the streaming wars are creating massive income inequality in the entertainment industry.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90250828/the-death-of-hollywoods-middle-class
Funny, I was just about to ask about this.

For industry people, are you living this? You either have to work for a big studio that only produce safe, shitty projects (zero-creativity superhero films), or work for peanuts, do it all yourself and put it on the Internet?
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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2018, 04:40:48 PM »
The death of Hollywood’s middle class
How Netflix and the streaming wars are creating massive income inequality in the entertainment industry.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90250828/the-death-of-hollywoods-middle-class
Funny, I was just about to ask about this.

For industry people, are you living this? You either have to work for a big studio that only produce safe, shitty projects (zero-creativity superhero films), or work for peanuts, do it all yourself and put it on the Internet?

No. That's not a good description.  There's a lot of money being invested in film and TV production now pretty much across the board.
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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2018, 07:05:50 PM »
I just wish there was one place I can get all the movies on line. I would gladly pay for that. For now I have to settle for net fix and the library.

You think you want a monopoly, but you absolutely don't.

No ,I definitely don't want a monopoly.  I just want a streaming service that I can get all the movies out. I want to be able to watch all the old movies from the 30's and beyond. I am happy to watch new movies in the theater but after the movie is out about a year I would like to watch it online. I just don't want to have 3 or 4 streaming services to subscribe to. Maybe one for movies and another for tv shows.

That's going to be a monopoly, because there's not a profit motive for more than 1 service to get the rights to all movies.  Streaming is profitable now because each service negotiates for specific rights. If there's only 1 service that has all the rights, that's a monopoly.

I've never really understood why only one service should get exclusive streaming rights.

Because exclusivity is value to the producer. If you want GoT, you go to HBO. If you don't go to HBO, you don't get GoT. If Netflix and Hulu also had GoT the day it aired, why would you pay HBO? Rinse, repeat. Same reason streaming services are picking up their own movies and series.

This is exactly why movie studios and theaters were broken up.  The producers of content should not have a monopoly on distribution.

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2018, 07:13:46 PM »
On a side note I am really surprised that libraries are allowed to exist.

Public lending libraries go back to times when most people could not afford to buy a book. It was a revolutionary idea at the time: Make books available to common people. Queretaro, Mexico, with a population of about half a million when I lived there, had a public library smaller than my house in Spokane today. It was pretty much worthless. Some of our founding fathers, believing that an educated populace strengthened a nation, supported the idea that books should be available free to citizens. And so far the Republicans have not gotten around to demolishing them.

My mother ran a very small publishing company and was very happy when libraries bought her books. I think the idea was that any exposure was good for sales. But maybe it was just that she loved libraries and was a frequent visitor to hers.
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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2018, 07:39:22 PM »
I just wish there was one place I can get all the movies on line. I would gladly pay for that. For now I have to settle for net fix and the library.

You think you want a monopoly, but you absolutely don't.

No ,I definitely don't want a monopoly.  I just want a streaming service that I can get all the movies out. I want to be able to watch all the old movies from the 30's and beyond. I am happy to watch new movies in the theater but after the movie is out about a year I would like to watch it online. I just don't want to have 3 or 4 streaming services to subscribe to. Maybe one for movies and another for tv shows.

That's going to be a monopoly, because there's not a profit motive for more than 1 service to get the rights to all movies.  Streaming is profitable now because each service negotiates for specific rights. If there's only 1 service that has all the rights, that's a monopoly.

I've never really understood why only one service should get exclusive streaming rights.

Because exclusivity is value to the producer. If you want GoT, you go to HBO. If you don't go to HBO, you don't get GoT. If Netflix and Hulu also had GoT the day it aired, why would you pay HBO? Rinse, repeat. Same reason streaming services are picking up their own movies and series.

This is exactly why movie studios and theaters were broken up.  The producers of content should not have a monopoly on distribution.

No longer a thing with deregulation. Studios and distributors are free to open theaters if they want.
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Offline 2397

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Re: Multiple streaming services are just encouraging pirates
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2018, 07:54:47 PM »
On a side note I am really surprised that libraries are allowed to exist.

It's the other way around. Copyright is a privilege granted by the government, and is or at least should only be allowed as far as it benefits the public. As long as libraries benefit the public too, there's no one to stop them from existing, unless the government is hijacked by private interests.