Topic: Penn's weight loss book

[CarbShark]

How can you know which lessons are relevant to you vs which may be specific to Penn as a possible outlier?
How can you be sure that even minus those differences he is not misremembering/misreporting on some details or forgetting entirely other important details?
Its a noble sentiment, but in terms of things like diet, this is exactly how people go astray into pseudoscience.

Throw a stone and hit someone with a book or youtube channel and a different, contradictory story.

When I say that I try to learn from anything I read it doesn't mean that I automatically agree with the ideas in the book, or that the thing I take away from the book is even an intentional message of the book.  But if you truly read things with no intention of contemplating their ideas I don't know what to say.

Well I didnt say that at all though.
If I were to read Penns book, I might find it interesting to think about how he felt emotionally during the process and might consider looking up the efficacy of whatever diet he followed.
Generally speaking though, for the reasons outlined above, its not the sort of thing I would ever read.

Not to say you shouldnt read it and enjoy it of course! Just that it seems like it could be worse than reading nothing at all if learning about effective weightloss techniques is the goal.
Maybe Im just jaded from hearing a different story and a different theory from basically everyone Ive trained with over the past 20years. I find that most people with the best results, have no real understanding of their success and advocate the most stupid stuff.

I generally don't read people's anecdotal diet stories, but I'd make an exception in Penn's case.

First, he's a clever writer, and it wouldn't be boring (which is the cardinal sin for me). But also, since he's a skeptic, I'm guessing that he based his diet on some science and medicine and I would fully to expect him to layout the process by which he chose a diet strategy, and that might be interesting, even if I wouldn't follow his program.

[bachfiend]

How can you know which lessons are relevant to you vs which may be specific to Penn as a possible outlier?
How can you be sure that even minus those differences he is not misremembering/misreporting on some details or forgetting entirely other important details?
Its a noble sentiment, but in terms of things like diet, this is exactly how people go astray into pseudoscience.

Throw a stone and hit someone with a book or youtube channel and a different, contradictory story.

When I say that I try to learn from anything I read it doesn't mean that I automatically agree with the ideas in the book, or that the thing I take away from the book is even an intentional message of the book.  But if you truly read things with no intention of contemplating their ideas I don't know what to say.

Well I didnt say that at all though.
If I were to read Penns book, I might find it interesting to think about how he felt emotionally during the process and might consider looking up the efficacy of whatever diet he followed.
Generally speaking though, for the reasons outlined above, its not the sort of thing I would ever read.

Not to say you shouldnt read it and enjoy it of course! Just that it seems like it could be worse than reading nothing at all if learning about effective weightloss techniques is the goal.
Maybe Im just jaded from hearing a different story and a different theory from basically everyone Ive trained with over the past 20years. I find that most people with the best results, have no real understanding of their success and advocate the most stupid stuff.

I generally don't read people's anecdotal diet stories, but I'd make an exception in Penn's case.

First, he's a clever writer, and it wouldn't be boring (which is the cardinal sin for me). But also, since he's a skeptic, I'm guessing that he based his diet on some science and medicine and I would fully to expect him to layout the process by which he chose a diet strategy, and that might be interesting, even if I wouldn't follow his program.

The best diet for attaining and maintaining a healthy body weight and body fat percentage is the one the person can keep to for years and decades, which varies from person to person.  Which diet and strategy works for one person may not work for another person. 

Why are you so willing to accept Penn’s anecdote, but so vehemently reject my anecdote of 30+ years success with a high carbohydrate/low fat vegetarian diet, which has managed to allow me to lose around 25 kg and reduce my BMI to 19.4 kg/m^2 (at the lower end of the healthy range) and a body fat percentage of 12%?

But I don’t proselytise for my diet, unlike you with your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet.  And your insistence that the American guidelines for diet and nutrition should be changed to reflect your ideology.  And you don’t have any evidence that your diet is best or healthiest, just short term studies showing slightly larger weight loss in the obese and overweight on your diet (an appreciable proportion of which is just water) and slight differences in blood lipid profiles (which are just a proxy for cardiovascular disease risk - to know whether the risk is reduced you still need the long term studies).

And whenever someone produces long term studies, such as the Lancet study showing that people on low carbohydrate diets have steeply increased mortality and reduced life expectancy, you find reasons to reject the study’s results.

[Harry Black]

Please keep low carb discussions to the relevant thread.

[bachfiend]

Please keep low carb discussions to the relevant thread.

The trouble is that CarbShark is notorious for proselytising for his ketogenic diet.  His screen name and his signature says it all.

[CarbShark]

Please keep low carb discussions to the relevant thread.

The trouble is that CarbShark is notorious for proselytising for his ketogenic diet.  His screen name and his signature says it all.

Don't drag me into your spillover. That's all you.

[bachfiend]

Please keep low carb discussions to the relevant thread.

The trouble is that CarbShark is notorious for proselytising for his ketogenic diet.  His screen name and his signature says it all.

Don't drag me into your spillover. That's all you.

You’re the one who claims to have done a ton of research on diet and nutrition, and dismisses anecdotes as evidence.  Penn’s book should be of little interest to (I must get around to listening to my copy).

Actually, anecdotes are pretty useful.  They provide information on what actually worked for people.  Studies don’t necessarily provide useful information.  The data is homogenesised, the participants often are more compliant and put in more effort (although many studies still have large dropout rates in spite of this), and the studies are usually very limited temporally.

[Harry Black]

Almost any limitation you can think of for a study would be applicable and then some for an anecdote.

[CarbShark]

Why are you so willing to accept Penn’s anecdote, but so vehemently reject my anecdote ...

I don't accept Penn's anecdote, Dr. Readingcomprehension.

Here's the difference:

Penn is very sharp, witty and LOL funny in his writing, and at the same time he's a skeptic and probably put some thought and research into his decision. That makes his writing worth reading, but his anecdote is just as worthless as yours (or mine).

[bachfiend]

Almost any limitation you can think of for a study would be applicable and then some for an anecdote.

At least you know from an anecdote that a particular diet or a particular strategy worked for at least one person.  If you manage to collect enough anecdotes then you’ve got a long term observational study, which is perhaps the best studies we have on lifestyle choices such as diet.

Not all anecdotes are equal.  Anecdotes regarding subjective symptoms, such as relief of headaches with acupuncture or spinal manipulation, are virtually worthless.  Anecdotes regarding objective conditions, such as obesity, treated with dietary manipulation or lifestyle changes, have some value, and can’t be completely rejected.

An anecdote is as good (or as bad) as a review of a book or film on Amazon.  You need not believe a 5 star review or an anecdote.  But you can judge whether it’s plausible or not.

[Harry Black]

The way to see if its plausible would be to check the probability. The way to check the probability would be to look at a larger body of data.
So we could have just checked the data in the first place...

[CarbShark]

Almost any limitation you can think of for a study would be applicable and then some for an anecdote.

At least you know from an anecdote that a particular diet or a particular strategy worked for at least one person.  If you manage to collect enough anecdotes then you’ve got a long term observational study, which is perhaps the best studies we have on lifestyle choices such as diet.

Not all anecdotes are equal.  Anecdotes regarding subjective symptoms, such as relief of headaches with acupuncture or spinal manipulation, are virtually worthless.  Anecdotes regarding objective conditions, such as obesity, treated with dietary manipulation or lifestyle changes, have some value, and can’t be completely rejected.

An anecdote is as good (or as bad) as a review of a book or film on Amazon.  You need not believe a 5 star review or an anecdote.  But you can judge whether it’s plausible or not.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Multiple uncontrolled, unverified random observations are simply that and no more.




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[stands2reason]

"Calories in, calories out" is still the consensus on body fat? So, any (fat) weight loss is controlled starvation. It's just a matter of eating regularly and keeping the daily caloric deficit small enough that your body doesn't trigger a starvation response (the notorious diet rebound effect).

I have a sweet tooth, but I avoid sugar-sweetened drinks. Lucky for me, I like the taste of sugar alcohols such as sucralose and xylitol. Otherwise, I am not afraid of carbs as long as they come with fiber (i.e. whole grain bread and oatmeal). Just a few hundred calories of oatmeal or shredded wheat in the morning makes me feel full, literally to the point where I feel like vomiting if I try to eat a full meal worth of food.

If you are struggling with food addiction, you could also try doing some LSD. You basically won't feel hunger much, nor emotional attachment to food or enjoying eating when you aren't hungry, or socially-ingrained ideas about food again.

[CarbShark]

"Calories in, calories out" is still the consensus on body fat? So, any (fat) weight loss is controlled starvation. It's just a matter of eating regularly and keeping the daily caloric deficit small enough that your body doesn't trigger a starvation response (the notorious diet rebound effect).

No. There is not a consensus on the effects of calories from various macronutrients on body fat storage. There is an alternate theory that calories from carbs, especially sugar and fast simple carbs, are more conducive to increasing fat stores or maintaining fat stores. There are also clear and important metabolic differences between people who consume a very low carb diet and a very high carb diet isocalorqcally. The alternate theory was once marginalized and discounted but has gained significant support from a growing number of professionals in medicine and diet an nutrition.

(These issues are best discussed in the LCHF thread)

I have a sweet tooth, but I avoid sugar-sweetened drinks. Lucky for me, I like the taste of sugar alcohols such as sucralose and xylitol. Otherwise, I am not afraid of carbs as long as they come with fiber (i.e. whole grain bread and oatmeal). Just a few hundred calories of oatmeal or shredded wheat in the morning makes me feel full, literally to the point where I feel like vomiting if I try to eat a full meal worth of food.

True whole grains are better for you than highly processed recombined whole grains. No grains may be even better (depending on if you already have excess stored fat or not).

If you are struggling with food addiction, you could also try doing some LSD. You basically won't feel hunger much, nor emotional attachment to food or enjoying eating when you aren't hungry, or socially-ingrained ideas about food again.

That does not sound scientific, and clearly, your milage may vary.

[John Albert]

CarbShark, now you are doing exactly what bachfiend accused, and spilling your LCHF discussion into this thread.

Maybe you and stands2reason should take this digression over to the relevant thread?

[Harry Black]

Carbshark specifically directed Stands2reason to the LCHF thread. I dont think we can ask more than that.

By this point no one should be confused as to where that discussion should continue.