Author Topic: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders  (Read 7633 times)

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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #135 on: December 11, 2018, 06:54:41 PM »
I think it should. I don't think it's the only thing that matters, but I definitely think it matters.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #136 on: December 11, 2018, 06:57:18 PM »
Thats fair enough. We all have different values and I do lack empathy in a lot of ways.

Offline CarbShark

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Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #137 on: December 11, 2018, 07:33:35 PM »
I don't quite get why the European conquerors are seen as "colonialist" while the likes of the Rashiduns and the Mughals are not. Seems to me that the Muslim conquests were every bit as imperialist, and their "missionary" efforts were even more brutal and oppressive.

Check out the story of St Olaf of Norway some time.

Anyway, it seems to me that certain posters here are expressing the idea that no matter the intention, if the outcome is bad then the act is evil. Would this be an accurate assessment?

For me, the term "evil" is predicated on an intent to cause harm. Missionaries have no intent to cause harm. The harm they do cause is a byproduct of their actions, not the purpose for them. I don't think that can be called evil.

Speaking only for myself, I see missionaries as elevating themselves, their beliefs and their faith above those of all others and they work to impose those things on others using various tools and techniques (kindness; medicine; gifts; charity; needed resources; fear; violence; deception, etc.).

If evil is a thing, surely that would qualify.

I elevate my beliefs about the importance of evidence and logic above most others, and I would love to use various tools and techniques to spread critical thinking as far as I can (except that I'm too lazy).  I think we should teach it in school to indoctrinate children, and we should have celebrities talk about it on their blogs to spread it to the masses.  I think evil is a slippery word that is hard to pin down almost to the point of uselessness.

That's a fair point, and I agree with some of it.

But what about using fear, violence or deception to spread your beliefs in evidence and logic?

How about using the promise medicine and desperately needed resources as incentives (bribes) to convince people to adopt critical thinking?

Is forcing your will on others right, even if your belief in logic and critical thinking happens to be good for them? Isn't that what missionaries and proselytizers thing about spreading their beliefs?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 08:07:01 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online arthwollipot

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #138 on: December 11, 2018, 07:43:51 PM »
Is forcing your will on others right, even if your belief in logic and critical thinking happens to be good for them? Isn't that what missionaries and proselytizers thing about spreading their beliefs?

Apologies for trimming the pyramid, but #notallmissionaries. Most of them - all of them in my experience, which is not universal - will go away if you ask them to.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #139 on: December 11, 2018, 08:06:36 PM »
Is forcing your will on others right, even if your belief in logic and critical thinking happens to be good for them? Isn't that what missionaries and proselytizers thing about spreading their beliefs?

Apologies for trimming the pyramid, but #notallmissionaries. Most of them - all of them in my experience, which is not universal - will go away if you ask them to.

Yup. And if your family is starving they’ll take their food, water with them.

You see the way for they themselves to
 get to heaven is by saving souls. And if you’re a lost cause they’ll just move on to the next one.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online arthwollipot

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #140 on: December 11, 2018, 08:17:04 PM »
Is forcing your will on others right, even if your belief in logic and critical thinking happens to be good for them? Isn't that what missionaries and proselytizers thing about spreading their beliefs?

Apologies for trimming the pyramid, but #notallmissionaries. Most of them - all of them in my experience, which is not universal - will go away if you ask them to.

Yup. And if your family is starving they’ll take their food, water with them.

You see the way for they themselves to
 get to heaven is by saving souls. And if you’re a lost cause they’ll just move on to the next one.

And again, #notallmissionaries. You're generalising from the behaviour of the worst of the worst, and extrapolating that to all of them.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #141 on: December 11, 2018, 09:21:42 PM »
it seems to me that certain posters here are expressing the idea that no matter the intention, if the outcome is bad then the act is evil. Would this be an accurate assessment?

In the philosophy of ethics, that position is known as "Consequentialism." It may be good for assigning blame after the fact, but its usefulness for decision-making is limited because it would require foreknowledge of outcomes which are often difficult to assess.


For me, the term "evil" is predicated on an intent to cause harm.

I'm inclined to agree with this. But I also feel that there ought to be a certain level of responsibility for the risk of harm, if such risk is known. Perhaps excessive recklessness, especially in the hindsight of previous bad outcomes of the past, should also be factored into the assessment of "Evil."

In terms of D&D alignment we'd call it "Chaotic," but in real life, do the two not become indistinguishable at some point? 


Missionaries have no intent to cause harm. The harm they do cause is a byproduct of their actions, not the purpose for them. I don't think that can be called evil.

I think it should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis depending on the circumstances. It seems like a hasty generalization to dismiss all missionaries as "evil" simply because we disagree with their worldview and deem social intervention to be a generally bad thing.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 09:31:20 PM by John Albert »

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #142 on: December 12, 2018, 05:21:00 PM »
Is forcing your will on others right, even if your belief in logic and critical thinking happens to be good for them? Isn't that what missionaries and proselytizers thing about spreading their beliefs?

Apologies for trimming the pyramid, but #notallmissionaries. Most of them - all of them in my experience, which is not universal - will go away if you ask them to.

Yup. And if your family is starving they’ll take their food, water with them.

You see the way for they themselves to
 get to heaven is by saving souls. And if you’re a lost cause they’ll just move on to the next one.

And again, #notallmissionaries. You're generalising from the behaviour of the worst of the worst, and extrapolating that to all of them.

I was going to argue, but in one sense you are right.  There may be other reasons some people become missionaries.

Maybe they think it helps them meet girls; maybe they think it helps them meet guys; maybe they think it will look good on their resume; maybe they're trying to find themselves; maybe they think it really is a way to help their fellow man, not just spiritually, but with the other things (food, resources, education); maybe there's peer pressure and they're becoming missionaries for social reasons.

For Mormon's it was a requirement that all young men become missionaries, but I've always believed the real purpose of that was so that there was less competition for marrying they young women in the communities if their peers were off in some faraway land.

So not all, but I'd say most missionaries fall into the worthless category. They're doing it to please their imaginary friend. 

Like Mother Teresa who lived and worked with the poorest of the poor in Calcutta, and raised millions of dollars for them, but did not use the money help feed, clothe, house or provide medicine to the poor.

Because her mission was to save their souls.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2018, 07:53:10 AM »
Moderator Comment Split off discussion about the evolution of religiosity can be found here:
https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,50869.45.html

Offline haudace

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #144 on: December 29, 2018, 11:22:33 AM »
Moderator Comment Split off discussion about the evolution of religiosity can be found here:
https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,50869.45.html

Woops sorry.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #145 on: December 31, 2018, 12:59:38 PM »
With the exception of someone directly involved in something like extreme genocide I am against capital punishment.
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #146 on: January 20, 2019, 08:33:00 PM »
With the exception of someone directly involved in something like extreme genocide I am against capital punishment.

That’s a bizarre way of characterizing the islanders’ actions.
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