Author Topic: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders  (Read 10190 times)

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Offline Rai

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2018, 01:44:40 PM »
Japan went way too far. My ideal scenario would have been an initial strong resistance to European invaders and forcing out equal treaties and trade agreements.

That sounds like Trump's idea also.

You do realise I am talking about resisting actual invasions in the 15-19th centuries

Offline John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2018, 01:16:03 PM »
Japan went way too far. My ideal scenario would have been an initial strong resistance to European invaders and forcing out equal treaties and trade agreements.

That sounds like Trump's idea also.

You do realise I am talking about resisting actual invasions in the 15-19th centuries

Except that most of the indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere who resisted the European invaders ended up getting completely wiped out.

Offline John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2018, 01:34:14 PM »

Online haudace

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2018, 08:32:22 PM »
Who is blaming a group of people for the actions of a few (actually not a few, but quite a lot. The slaveowners, the invaders, the colonisers, the traders, the lawmakers, the "explorers")

Well, let me ask you! Why do you feel you have to bring up colonial and slavery tragedies in this thread? How are this tragic history and this proselytizing idiotic "martyr" related?

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He was a missionary. What was his goal, if not to invade and destroy? Did he not make landfall without the consent of the inhabitants? Was his goal not to convert the locals to the supersititon he believed to be superior? Was he expecting Christianity to live alongside the local culture and beliefs? He was an invader aiming to destroy Sentinelese culture.

I very highly doubt a one person army is capable of such amazing feats.

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You cannot compare European colonisation with any other war, it was the single most destructive event in Human history. Which other war killed hundreds of millions of people and, I repeat, eliminated most social, economic and political progress of five continents?

Do you honestly think Europeans are the only ones capable of such destruction? Do you know what Mongols have done to Asia and Eastern Europe in less than 100 years? In the 13th century, they wiped out whole nations, pretty much destroyed the Islamic Golden Age civilization pushing it back into the dark ages (some scholars are convinced the Middle East is still recovering). It's estimated the death toll is over 100 million of those killed during Mongols campaign conquests. No one know for sure how many have died indirectly though (famine, disease, economic collapse leading to further conflicts etc...). To give you a glimpse, the black death in Europe has been linked to Mongolian invasion.

Europeans were simply the first to have the means and the opportunity to take it global. Mongols had the will to go global as well. The only thing that stopped them is internal conflict within their government. Otherwise, we would be all speaking a very different language, assuming our ancestors wouldn't have been ethnically cleansed.

My point is that it is important to take history in its proper context and clearly understand what human nature is.

Offline Rai

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2018, 03:04:59 AM »
Except that most of the indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere who resisted the European invaders ended up getting completely wiped out.

Because resistance started way too late


Well, let me ask you! Why do you feel you have to bring up colonial and slavery tragedies in this thread? How are this tragic history and this proselytizing idiotic "martyr" related?

Because he was driven by the same invader/coloniser mentality as the rest?

I very highly doubt a one person army is capable of such amazing feats.

You know that there are only a few dozen Sentinelese, don't you?

Also, capability is one thing, the intent is more important.

Do you honestly think Europeans are the only ones capable of such destruction? 

Where did I say that? They are the ones who did it, that's it.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2018, 10:03:06 AM »
You know that there are only a few dozen Sentinelese, don't you?

There is significant disagreement about that number, actually; the most common figure I've seen referenced is around 50, but since all observations have been done from a distance there is a lot of guesswork involved.  I've seen estimates in my reading ranging from 15 (the number actually counted in the last Indian Census, according to Wikipedia) to 500.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2018, 11:09:53 AM »
Except that most of the indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere who resisted the European invaders ended up getting completely wiped out.

Because resistance started way too late

So you think the resistance by all those indigenous peoples started "too late," and they would have prevailed otherwise?

You really believe all those stone age civilizations would have prevailed against the armored European cavalry, crossbowmen, and musketeers, if only they'd attacked on first sight? How could you even go about defending that assumption with actual data?


Well, let me ask you! Why do you feel you have to bring up colonial and slavery tragedies in this thread? How are this tragic history and this proselytizing idiotic "martyr" related?

Because he was driven by the same invader/coloniser mentality as the rest?

Given that you've never met the guy personally, you're not really qualified to comment on his mentality. But I get the impression your critique wasn't specifically targeted at his personal ethics and values.

As a product of 21st Century upbringing, this self-styled Christian missionary is obviously coming from a very different culture than the 16th-18th Century European genociders who wiped out entire nations in pursuit of their "God, King, and Country" ideals. It's anachronistic and frankly a tad bigoted to blithely lump him in with the worst excesses of the European colonial powers by dint of his race and religion alone, without considering the countless other factors at play in the postmodern world.

He went to that island all by himself looking to make friends and share his religious beliefs, not leading an army of soldiers bent on conquest and plunder. His friends and family have said that he was well aware of the dangers but was determined to go anyway. By outward appearance he was no conqueror, but just another privileged, idealistic young man seeking adventure and fame, who found death like so many others before him.


As for these last two rebuttals, you addressed them to me although they both originated from haudace.

         
I very highly doubt a one person army is capable of such amazing feats.

You know that there are only a few dozen Sentinelese, don't you?

Also, capability is one thing, the intent is more important.

Do you honestly think Europeans are the only ones capable of such destruction? 

Where did I say that? They are the ones who did it, that's it.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 03:49:00 PM by John Albert »

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2018, 11:58:13 AM »
Because he was driven by the same invader/coloniser mentality as the rest?

No he was not. I am very skeptical of your claim this missionary considers Sentinelese sub humans and deserve to be treated/abused like cattle.

You know that there are only a few dozen Sentinelese, don't you?
 

I didn't get this impression from reading articles about the Sentinelese.

Also, capability is one thing, the intent is more important.

This is akin to saying Sentinelese are a bunch of naive people to not be able to see through the missionary's intentions.

Do you honestly think Europeans are the only ones capable of such destruction? 

Where did I say that? They are the ones who did it, that's it.

Like I said, Mongols came pretty close. Europeans had about 500 years. Mongols had less than a 100.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean this to be a competition of who killed the most in the world. I am just always especially wary of opinions/statements that single out one group of people and denigrate them.

Offline Rai

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2018, 03:05:07 PM »
As a product of 21st Century upbringing, this self-styled Christian missionary is obviously coming from a very different culture than the 16th-18th Century European genociders who wiped out entire nations in pursuit of their "God, King, and Country" ideals. It's anachronistic and frankly a tad bigoted to blithely lump him in with the worst excesses of the European colonial powers by dint of his race and religion alone, without considering the countless other factors at play in the postmodern world.

Oh, so now I am bigoted because when a Western coloniser/invader shows up uninvited to a place inhabited by uncontacted people in order to convert these savages to the TRUE FAITH, i call him what he is. How horrible of me. Once again, the Tone Police arrested me for cruel bigotry against a person who almost wiped out the oldest culture on the planet.

Do you ever white knight people, ideas and movements who are not complete monsters?


No he was not. I am very skeptical of your claim this missionary considers Sentinelese sub humans and deserve to be treated/abused like cattle.

I never claimed that.

I didn't get this impression from reading articles about the Sentinelese.

Their population is thought to be extremely low, the Indian government never published an estimate above 50 individuals (high estimates are in the couple hundreds, which is still very small). The island is really not all that big.

This is akin to saying Sentinelese are a bunch of naive people to not be able to see through the missionary's intentions.

Fortunately they weren't naive and they got rid of him quickly. But historically, very few people saw through the intentions of the coloniser/invaders. Even statesmen like Motēuczōmah or Atawallpa made the mistake of not shooting first.


Like I said, Mongols came pretty close. Europeans had about 500 years. Mongols had less than a 100.

Did they?  wiping out a few states (to be replaced by different local dynasties) Asia does not really compare to the devastation of the Americas, Africa, Asia and Australasia, and setting up power structures that continue to damage the world up to this day.

Offline John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2018, 03:13:52 PM »
Oh, so now I am bigoted

No, I didn't say you were bigoted. I said "it's a tad bigoted to blithely lump him in with the worst excesses of the European colonial powers by dint of his race and religion alone."


because when a Western coloniser/invader shows up uninvited to a place inhabited by uncontacted people in order to convert these savages to the TRUE FAITH, i call him what he is.

You did not "call him what he is." You called him a "coloniser/invader," which he most certainly was not.


Do you ever white knight people, ideas and movements who are not complete monsters?

I'm not "white knighting" anybody.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 11:13:12 PM by John Albert »

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »
No he was not. I am very skeptical of your claim this missionary considers Sentinelese sub humans and deserve to be treated/abused like cattle.
I never claimed that.

Yes, you did when you said the missionary had the same mentality as the colonizers/invaders.

Their population is thought to be extremely low, the Indian government never published an estimate above 50 individuals (high estimates are in the couple hundreds, which is still very small). The island is really not all that big.

Their population may be low, but it's not a dozen of so left.

Like I said, Mongols came pretty close. Europeans had about 500 years. Mongols had less than a 100.

Did they?  wiping out a few states (to be replaced by different local dynasties) Asia does not really compare to the devastation of the Americas, Africa, Asia and Australasia, and setting up power structures that continue to damage the world up to this day.

Mongols practically took over a significant portion of Asia and they were about to take over Europe using genocidal tactics. Why do you think the name Genkhis Khan is still very strongly entrenched in our memory?

« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 03:21:13 PM by haudace »

Offline John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2018, 03:23:05 PM »
Mongols practically took over a significant portion of Asia and they were about to take over Europe using genocidal tactics. Why do you think the name Genkhis Khan is still very strongly entrenched in our memory?

And also in our genealogy, apparently.

Offline Rai

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2018, 03:26:55 PM »
He invaded other people's lands to destroy their culture and replace it one that he claimsbto be superior. That is the mentality

As for the numbers, I wrote "few dozen", not "only a dozen"

Finally, since when is "a significant portion of Asia" even close to the whole of the Americas, Africa, Asia and Australia/Oceania?

Offline John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2018, 03:34:43 PM »
The Mongols conquered nearly all of Asia and a significant portion of Eastern Europe, in under 170 years. They slaughtered so many men and raped so many women that something like 1 in 200 people carry Genghis Khan's genes to this very day.

The only thing that stopped the expansion of the Mongols was their own internal struggles. They could have easily conquered all of Western Europe as well—and possibly defeated the Delhis and taken the Indian Subcontinent—if they hadn't suspended hostilities due to the death of Barak Khan, which subsequently caused the empire to split.


Did they?  wiping out a few states (to be replaced by different local dynasties) Asia does not really compare

Why are you white-knighting those violent invaders who raped, murdered and plundered most of Asia and Eastern Europe?


He invaded other people's lands to destroy their culture and replace it one that he claimsbto be superior. That is the mentality

Are you talking about Genghis Khan, or John Allen Chau?

It's rather presumptuous to assert that John Allen Chau intended to destroy their culture and replace it. If you read the article, it seems that he viewed his visit as a cultural exchange.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 03:51:35 PM by John Albert »

Offline John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2018, 03:55:40 PM »
the Indian government never published an estimate above 50 individuals

It's important to note that the Indian estimates for the population of North Sentinel Island have been gathered by passing by in a boat or flying overhead in an airplane, and manually counting the number of individuals they see shooting arrows at them.

50 individuals is probably not even close to a minimum viable population for humans.

 

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