Author Topic: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders  (Read 3263 times)

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Online John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2018, 03:31:03 PM »
Except, as stated in as many different ways as I know how to say it- Its almost impossible to make contact with a previously uncontacted community and not do all those things.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it; if it's untrue, it's untrue. You and Rai have both been making claims that are quite plainly not true, as well as some claims for which you simply don't have any evidence.

You obviously ignored the link I posted, which lists many such tribes that have survived occasional contact. Given that many other such cultures do exist which have survived contact with visitors from the modern world, it's not a foregone conclusion that the mere act of making contact with a previously uncontacted community will necessarily "destroy its culture."

In fact, the Sentinelese themselves are one such culture who have had occasional non-hostile contact with the outside world. Given that their culture has not been destroyed, there's no reason to believe that contact with one more guy would necessarily destroy it.

It's also a misnomer to call him a "coloniser," given that he went there all by himself without any apparent intention of founding a colony.

It's also a misnomer to call him an "invader," since his intent was not to take over their land by force.

Repeating those false statements over and over again in slightly different wordings will never make them any more true.


It doesnt matter what he intended so it doesnt matter where it is or isnt written.

Hie intentions certainly do matter when you're making statements about his intentions, as Rai and yourself are doing by characterizing him as a "colonizer" and an "invader," and accusing him of "trying to destroy" the Sentinelese culture.


The only way to give him the benefit of the doubt

So now you're asserting that there's only one way to give him the benefit of the doubt?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 04:54:27 PM by John Albert »

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2018, 05:14:49 PM »
If a surgeon decides he doesnt want to wash his hands before performing surgery, it doesnt really matter why or what he believes he is achieving.
You are willing to be far more generous than I am. I happen to think we should err on the pessimistic side when considering the survival of a people vs the indulgence of a naive egotist.
What he did was not illegal for no reason. The navy were not tasked with enforcement for the fun of it.

Online John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2018, 05:23:17 PM »
If a surgeon decides he doesnt want to wash his hands before performing surgery, it doesnt really matter why or what he believes he is achieving.You are willing to be far more generous than I am. I happen to think we should err on the pessimistic side when considering the survival of a people vs the indulgence of a naive egotist.
What he did was not illegal for no reason. The navy were not tasked with enforcement for the fun of it.

I don't disagree with any of that, except to say that my position was considered in the pursuit of honesty and accuracy as opposed to generosity.

And while I agree with your statement about surgeons, the problem with using it as a metaphor for John Allen Chau is that surgeons are rigorously trained and legally bound to uphold an accepted standard of ethics. Missionary adventurers, not so much. Chau was 'trained' in the dubious practice of saving souls by winning their hearts over to Jesus.

There's no need for unwarranted projections of ill intent onto this young man, in order to conclude that his actions were deluded, egotistical, unethical, reckless, and obviously illegal. Perhaps his death was the best-case scenario in the total balance, but I'm still loathe to lavish praise on those who indiscriminately killed him just for showing up.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 06:24:54 PM by John Albert »

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2018, 06:18:41 PM »
I dont praise those who killed him.
I just think they made the right decision in the aggregate. Maybe their reasoning wasnt great, I cant know that.

As for him- His intent doesnt matter. All of the information to help him realise the impact of his actions was readily available. If he was ignorant, he was wilfully ignorant and his presence may yet bring catastrophic disease to those people.

Online John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2018, 06:23:02 PM »
Agreed. And we both know that ideologically invested people often tend to believe they're right, no matter what.

I'm inclined to view Chau as much a victim of religion as the people he was trying to convert.

Offline haudace

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2018, 07:09:54 PM »
If a surgeon decides he doesnt want to wash his hands before performing surgery, it doesnt really matter why or what he believes he is achieving.
You are willing to be far more generous than I am. I happen to think we should err on the pessimistic side when considering the survival of a people vs the indulgence of a naive egotist.
What he did was not illegal for no reason. The navy were not tasked with enforcement for the fun of it.

In your surgeon analogy there is threat of death - patient end up getting infections and die. I don't see how John Allen Chau would have led to the deaths of Sentinelese.

Online daniel1948

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2018, 10:16:45 PM »
If a surgeon decides he doesnt want to wash his hands before performing surgery, it doesnt really matter why or what he believes he is achieving.
You are willing to be far more generous than I am. I happen to think we should err on the pessimistic side when considering the survival of a people vs the indulgence of a naive egotist.
What he did was not illegal for no reason. The navy were not tasked with enforcement for the fun of it.

In your surgeon analogy there is threat of death - patient end up getting infections and die. I don't see how John Allen Chau would have led to the deaths of Sentinelese.

Because of their isolation, they lack natural immunity to many diseases. Chau, like all of us, probably carried diseases that, while minor to us, would be fatal to them. This is one of the reasons it is illegal to go there. He broke a law which was intended to protect them from fatal diseases. He knew it was illegal to go there. If he was ignorant of the reason, it was because he refused to find out. Given the arrogance of missionaries in general, he probably just didn't care.
Daniel
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Online Rai

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2018, 06:02:35 AM »
So now, a Westerner going to the lands of an autonomous, uncontacted indigenous nation without an invitation and against the clearly expressed wishes of the locals in order to convert them to a Western superstition because their savage ways are just not good enough for them, which would have ended with colonisation and eradication had he been successful, is totes not colonisation or invasion.

Got it.

I won't even start talking about how John is, once again, taking a subjective interpretation of a term and then declaring it to be the one true definition, because I've been down that rabbit hole far too many times.

Online John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2018, 03:37:45 PM »
In your surgeon analogy there is threat of death - patient end up getting infections and die. I don't see how John Allen Chau would have led to the deaths of Sentinelese.

He could very well have led to their deaths through communicable disease, but he probably believed that wouldn't happen because Jebuz.


So now, a Westerner going to the lands of an autonomous, uncontacted indigenous nation without an invitation and against the clearly expressed wishes of the locals in order to convert them to a Western superstition because their savage ways are just not good enough for them, which would have ended with colonisation and eradication had he been successful, is totes not colonisation or invasion.

First of all, that's a strawman argument.

Nobody but you seems to believe he went there in a spirit of arrogance, condescension and malice. By all accounts including his own diary, he was a deluded Jesus freak who believed he was on a mission from God to save their souls through Jesus' love.

He even yelled "Jesus loves you!" and sang hymns as he puttered his little dinghy out to the island, while the Sentinelese shot arrows at him.

 
I won't even start talking about how John is, once again, taking a subjective interpretation of a term and then declaring it to be the one true definition

I'm using the commonly-accepted dictionary definitions.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/colonizer

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/invader

It would appear that you're the one using a "subjective interpretation of a term."
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 11:19:05 AM by John Albert »

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2018, 04:45:44 PM »
Nobody but you seems to believe he went there in a spirit of arrogance, condescension and malice.

He was a missionary trying to convert non-believers. That encompasses all three. Combine that with putting their health and lives at risk by exposing them to disease, I don't see how anyone could argue it wasn't all three and worse.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2018, 04:59:52 PM »
Nobody but you seems to believe he went there in a spirit of arrogance, condescension and malice.

He was a missionary trying to convert non-believers. That encompasses all three.

Be careful not to project your own disdain for religion onto this guy.

From his deluded Christian perspective, he was doing the most compassionate and loving thing a human being can do. He was doing them the immense beneficence of sharing Jesus' infinite love with those who don't know Him.


I don't see how anyone could argue it wasn't all three and worse.

You mean you really can't manage to comprehend anybody else's viewpoint but your own?

I'm not saying what he did was right or good. I'm saying he bore them no ill will, and earnestly believed he was saving their immortal souls.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 01:45:32 PM by John Albert »

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2018, 06:09:51 PM »
Nobody but you seems to believe he went there in a spirit of arrogance, condescension and malice.

He was a missionary trying to convert non-believers. That encompasses all three.

Be careful not to project your own disdain for religion onto this guy.

From his deluded Christian perspective, he was doing the most compassionate and loving thing a human being can do. He was doing them the immense beneficence of sharing Jesus' infinite love with those who don't know Him.

How is that not condescension and arrogance?

Add to that the idea that he was willing to risk their lives and expose them to disease in order to save their souls, and you have malice. If you kill anyone,  directly or indirectly, through actions that any reasonable person could see as a result, then that would qualify as malice. Legally, morally and ethically.
Quote

I don't see how anyone could argue it wasn't all three and worse.

I'm not saying what he did was right or good. I'm saying he bore them no ill will, and earnestly believed he was saving their immoral souls.

If you kill someone (or put their lives at risk) in order to save their soul, that's about as ill as one could possibly will.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online John Albert

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2018, 10:53:38 AM »
Nobody but you seems to believe he went there in a spirit of arrogance, condescension and malice.

He was a missionary trying to convert non-believers. That encompasses all three.

Be careful not to project your own disdain for religion onto this guy.

From his deluded Christian perspective, he was doing the most compassionate and loving thing a human being can do. He was doing them the immense beneficence of sharing Jesus' infinite love with those who don't know Him.

How is that not condescension and arrogance?

"Condescension" and "arrogance," both imply feelings of disrespect, disdain and contempt. Again, you're projecting intentions and feelings onto this guy that are at direct odds with all reports about him. If you read his own words and accounts of his actions, and descriptions of him by people who knew him, he was not disdainful of the Sentinelese and did not wish to cause them any harm.


Add to that the idea that he was willing to risk their lives and expose them to disease in order to save their souls, and you have malice.

I see the problem here. You don't understand what the word "malice" means.

         
Quote from: Google Dictionary
mal·ice
/ˈmaləs/
noun

the intention or desire to do evil; ill will.
"I bear no malice toward anybody"

synonyms: spite, malevolence, ill will, vindictiveness, vengefulness, revenge, malignity, evil intentions, animus, enmity, rancor...

LAW
wrongful intention, especially as increasing the guilt of certain offenses.


If you kill anyone, directly or indirectly, through actions that any reasonable person could see as a result, then that would qualify as malice. Legally, morally and ethically.

That is absolutely not the definition of "malice," legal or otherwise. Malice means willful intent to cause harm.


Quote
I don't see how anyone could argue it wasn't all three and worse.

I'm not saying what he did was right or good. I'm saying he bore them no ill will, and earnestly believed he was saving their immoral souls.

If you kill someone (or put their lives at risk) in order to save their soul, that's about as ill as one could possibly will.

To an evangelical Christian, saving souls the most important thing in the universe. According to the tenets of evangelical Christianity, a person's soul is more important than their life. Evangelicals believe that this life is just a preparation or "pre-test" for the eternal afterlife. So in his eyes, risking lives (including his own) was a minor chance to take in the light of ushering souls into eternal joy with God in Heaven.

You can call that naive, stupid, deluded, asinine, any number of things but it's really not fair to assert that the guy intended to hurt those people. In his sincere belief, he was doing the most loving and generous thing any Christian could possibly do for a non-Christian.

Do you not understand how total commitment to an irrational belief can lead a goodhearted, well-meaning individual to commit dangerous or foolhardy acts without ill intent?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 11:36:43 AM by John Albert »

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2018, 01:55:14 PM »
Nobody but you seems to believe he went there in a spirit of arrogance, condescension and malice.

He was a missionary trying to convert non-believers. That encompasses all three.

Be careful not to project your own disdain for religion onto this guy.

From his deluded Christian perspective, he was doing the most compassionate and loving thing a human being can do. He was doing them the immense beneficence of sharing Jesus' infinite love with those who don't know Him.

How is that not condescension and arrogance?

"Condescension" and "arrogance," both imply feelings of disrespect, disdain and contempt. Again, you're projecting intentions and feelings onto this guy that are at direct odds with all reports about him. If you read his own words and accounts of his actions, and descriptions of him by people who knew him, he was not disdainful of the Sentinelese and did not wish to cause them any harm.

You're just buying the religious bullshit, that they love everyone.

He was disrespectful, had disdain and contempt for their lifestyle, religion and culture. He knew full well that he was potentially exposing them to diseases that could, potentially, cause serious illness and death. The fact that his friends and writing say, that he didn't want to cause any harm is completely irrelevant.

If he really didn't wish to cause harm he should have stayed home.



Quote

Add to that the idea that he was willing to risk their lives and expose them to disease in order to save their souls, and you have malice.

I see the problem here. You don't understand what the word "malice" means.

         
Quote from: Google Dictionary
mal·ice
/ˈmaləs/
noun

the intention or desire to do evil; ill will.
"I bear no malice toward anybody"

synonyms: spite, malevolence, ill will, vindictiveness, vengefulness, revenge, malignity, evil intentions, animus, enmity, rancor...

LAW
wrongful intention, especially as increasing the guilt of certain offenses.

OK, mr google, lookup negligence and malice, you you'll discover that if one is negligent and/or careless beyond the standard of what a reasonable individual would do, that meets the legal (and ethical and moral) standard for malice.


 
Quote
I don't see how anyone could argue it wasn't all three and worse.

I'm not saying what he did was right or good. I'm saying he bore them no ill will, and earnestly believed he was saving their immoral souls.

And I'm saying that belief does not in any ways make his actions less malicious.

They used to burn people at the stake because they thought the pain would purify their souls. Does that make it better, since they really believed that?
Quote
Quote

If you kill someone (or put their lives at risk) in order to save their soul, that's about as ill as one could possibly will.

To an evangelical Christian, saving souls the most important thing in the universe. According to the tenets of evangelical Christianity, a person's soul is more important than their life. Evangelicals believe that this life is just a preparation or "pre-test" for the eternal afterlife. So in his eyes, risking lives (including his own) was a minor chance to take in the light of ushering souls into eternal joy with God in Heaven.

You can call that naive, stupid, deluded, asinine, any number of things but it's really not fair to assert that the guy intended to hurt those people. In his sincere belief, he was doing the most loving and generous thing any Christian could possibly do for a non-Christian.

Do you not understand how total commitment to an irrational belief can lead a goodhearted, well-meaning individual to commit dangerous or foolhardy acts without ill intent?

I reject that. The evangelical christian has beliefs. That's the core of their religion, they believe, but do not know, but have faith.

To force that faith and belief on other people at the risk of their death, no matter how much they truly believe and have faith that it would be the best for them, is the height of arrogance, condescension and malice.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 05:32:54 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just a guy who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online daniel1948

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Re: Christian missionary missing, presumed killed by Sentinelese islanders
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2018, 04:31:18 PM »
To an evangelical Christian, saving souls the most important thing in the universe. According to the tenets of evangelical Christianity, a person's soul is more important than their life. Evangelicals believe that this life is just a preparation or "pre-test" for the eternal afterlife. So in his eyes, risking lives (including his own) was a minor chance to take in the light of ushering souls into eternal joy with God in Heaven.

This is exactly why religion is the most vile, disgusting, filthy invention that has ever come out of the human mind, and why missionaries, preachers, pastors, priests, lamas, rabbis, mullahs, etc., all belong in prison for life, and not allowed to come into contact with prisoners serving less than life sentences.

Religious fuckwads will burn you at the stake in the belief that they're doing you a favor, and the only reason they ever stopped doing that was that secular government got more powerful than the Church and won't allow them to do it any more.
Daniel
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