Author Topic: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?  (Read 1938 times)

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Offline swan

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2018, 06:50:57 PM »
Altruism isn't all that it's cracked up to be: Rationally Speaking #221: Rob Reich (no, not THAT Robert Reich) on "Is philanthropy bad for democracy?"

It's a bit painful to listen to as he stumbles his way towards his points… and he misses some obvious examples (like making universities create CAM schools), but in the end even a picky listener like me found it worth the effort.

That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.
Your concept of ancient slavery doesn't match anything I've ever seen, conflicts with a great deal of what I've seen.  How did you develop this impression?

Wasn't that how it worked on the Roman planet in an old episode of Star Trek? ;)

Online daniel1948

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2018, 10:25:39 AM »
In ancient days, the powerful made themselves rich by taking everything away from everyone else. It was generally in their interest to keep the poor alive (but just barely) so they'd have people to take stuff from. Today, the powerful take everything they can from everyone else, but in an overpopulated industrialized market economy there is an excess of workers so the powerful don't care if some starve to death.

The solution is not to restore legal slavery. The solution is to eat the rich. It won't happen though, because the rich are too well organized and the poor are constantly at each other's throats.
Daniel
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Offline BilLumberg

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2018, 12:26:01 PM »
Trickle down can work. We just need to wait a little longer. Rich people just need to be a little bit richer. Once they are rich enough the floodgates will open and all the worlds problems will be solved.

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2018, 12:50:56 PM »
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

Offline swan

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2018, 02:21:50 PM »
The Extra Credits video on Pellagra (caused by niacin deficiency) – when Southern politicians actively fought against free federal food aid for the poor because it would make them look bad – drove home the point about how downright evil "civilized" wealthy people can be. (Nice bit of science denial there too.)


Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2018, 04:28:41 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2018, 04:38:36 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

Your concept of ancient slavery doesn't match anything I've ever seen, conflicts with a great deal of what I've seen.  How did you develop this impression?

By trying to dither out why none of the religions or ancient governments outlawed slavery and remembering how many countries, including the U.S. after slavery was abolished, instituted a number of laws to protect the serfs from abuse by their new masters, eh employers that is.

Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2018, 04:45:33 PM »
Altruism isn't all that it's cracked up to be: Rationally Speaking #221: Rob Reich (no, not THAT Robert Reich) on "Is philanthropy bad for democracy?"

It's a bit painful to listen to as he stumbles his way towards his points… and he misses some obvious examples (like making universities create CAM schools), but in the end even a picky listener like me found it worth the effort.

That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.
Your concept of ancient slavery doesn't match anything I've ever seen, conflicts with a great deal of what I've seen.  How did you develop this impression?

Wasn't that how it worked on the Roman planet in an old episode of Star Trek? ;)

Many think we live in democracies despite all the evidence that we live in oligarchies.

That aside, I just found this guy who has some decent ideas.





I will give your link a look Thanks for it.

I find myself basically agreeing with that speaker you linked as I see many of the charitable foundations for philanthropy to be more of tax havens than real philanthropic entities. Once formed, they want to survive more than help over the long run.

Regards
DL
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 05:01:22 PM by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Offline moj

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2018, 04:49:21 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Maybe, just maybe not having slaves while at the same time  adhering to basic human rights. Crazy, I know. Automation will bring cheaper more efficient labor than slaves without any of the barbarism of slavery.

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2018, 04:51:36 PM »
In ancient days, the powerful made themselves rich by taking everything away from everyone else. It was generally in their interest to keep the poor alive (but just barely) so they'd have people to take stuff from. Today, the powerful take everything they can from everyone else, but in an overpopulated industrialized market economy there is an excess of workers so the powerful don't care if some starve to death.

The solution is not to restore legal slavery. The solution is to eat the rich. It won't happen though, because the rich are too well organized and the poor are constantly at each other's throats.

I note that you give no role to those who are supposed to have the public at heart. The governments.

I agree that hardly anyone give a damn for the condition of our full demography.

Regards
DL

Online arthwollipot

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2018, 04:53:04 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.
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Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2018, 04:53:32 PM »
Trickle down can work. We just need to wait a little longer. Rich people just need to be a little bit richer. Once they are rich enough the floodgates will open and all the worlds problems will be solved.

Trickle down is good. Trickle up is a lot better.

To tell a starving person to just be patient is quite the advice.

Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2018, 04:57:58 PM »
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Regards
DL

Online CarbShark

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2018, 05:12:02 PM »
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Nope.  Slavery for the ancients was usually the result of military defeat. It's not like they went down to their version of skid row and picked out a few slaves to help with the harvest. 

Slavery is in essence the opposite of altruism.
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2018, 05:14:35 PM »
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Regards
DL
That is not actually supporting evidence, its just assertions on your part that basically repeat your previous assertions. 

What definition of altruism are you using?