Author Topic: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?  (Read 3040 times)

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Offline random poet

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2018, 05:16:02 PM »
And also who the hell are these "ancients" you keep talking about? It sounds like you don't know anything about history, from any given period or place.
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Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2018, 05:19:25 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Maybe, just maybe not having slaves while at the same time  adhering to basic human rights. Crazy, I know. Automation will bring cheaper more efficient labor than slaves without any of the barbarism of slavery.

The vast majority of slavery these days in the countries that can automate the jobs where slaves are still used are sex slaves. I do not see how we could automate that. At least not yet. The other areas where slaves are used, are poor areas where automation is not practical. Especially where indentured or seasonal workers are imported.

In those places, other legislation has to get by the bribes to stop the legislations.

Those workers end in singing ----



Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2018, 05:22:58 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.

So you want to continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result.

Ok. Insane.

Regards
DL

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2018, 05:27:40 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.

So you want to continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result.

Ok. Insane.

Regards
DL

I can't believe that I have to explain this in 2018. Slavery is bad. It should never again be legal. Even doing nothing is better than making it legal again.

If you believe otherwise, you are bad at being a human.
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Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2018, 05:32:12 PM »
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Nope.  Slavery for the ancients was usually the result of military defeat. It's not like they went down to their version of skid row and picked out a few slaves to help with the harvest. 

Slavery is in essence the opposite of altruism.

No. It was the old form of welfare. 

That is why the religions of that day did not speak against them and even endorsed it the way the bible does.

Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2018, 05:34:21 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.

So you want to continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result.

Ok. Insane.

Regards
DL

I can't believe that I have to explain this in 2018. Slavery is bad. It should never again be legal. Even doing nothing is better than making it legal again.

If you believe otherwise, you are bad at being a human.

He says while I want to bring them out of the cold and protect them under the law while you would leave them out in the cold.

Regards
DL

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2018, 05:46:25 PM »
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.

So you want to continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result.

Ok. Insane.

Regards
DL

I can't believe that I have to explain this in 2018. Slavery is bad. It should never again be legal. Even doing nothing is better than making it legal again.

If you believe otherwise, you are bad at being a human.

He says while I want to bring them out of the cold and protect them under the law while you would leave them out in the cold.

Regards
DL

No. I want to stamp out slavery wherever it lurks. It is a blight on civilisation. A thoroughly evil practice that does nothing but degrade and devalue its victims. You want to perpetrate it. Disgusting.
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2018, 05:49:49 PM »
There isn't much point in a conversation in which one party just keeps making unsubstantiated assertions, speaks platitudes, and uses ill defined terms with little or no meaning. 

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2018, 05:59:44 PM »
There isn't much point in a conversation in which one party just keeps making unsubstantiated assertions, speaks platitudes, and uses ill defined terms with little or no meaning.

Not to mention one who outright supports and calls for the legalisation of one of the most evil practices humankind ever had the misfortune to think up.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2018, 07:05:33 PM »
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Nope.  Slavery for the ancients was usually the result of military defeat. It's not like they went down to their version of skid row and picked out a few slaves to help with the harvest. 

Slavery is in essence the opposite of altruism.

No. It was the old form of welfare. 

That is why the religions of that day did not speak against them and even endorsed it the way the bible does.


That is nonsense. The religions did not speak against them because they were corrupt and immoral (as always) and they used fear of others and zenophobia to justify war rape torture and slavery.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2018, 07:57:35 PM »
By trying to dither out why none of the religions or ancient governments outlawed slavery

This doesn't answer my question.  It's just a non-sequitor rationalization. 

Quote
and remembering how many countries, including the U.S. after slavery was abolished, instituted a number of laws to protect the serfs from abuse by their new masters, eh employers that is.

Read up on US Labor History. It's violent as hell.

Many think we live in democracies despite all the evidence that we live in oligarchies.

False dichotomy.  Every developed economy is oligarchic to one degree or another.  The question is in what ways and to what extents (especially with regards to who's more influential between the oligarchy and the public).


You're taking this as an article of faith and offering us blithe rationalization.
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2018, 01:35:57 AM »
No. It was the old form of welfare. 

That is why the religions of that day did not speak against them and even endorsed it the way the bible does.

Regards
DL

Ask yourself how you would like being a slave?
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Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2018, 11:41:20 AM »
By trying to dither out why none of the religions or ancient governments outlawed slavery

This doesn't answer my question.  It's just a non-sequitor rationalization. 

Quote
and remembering how many countries, including the U.S. after slavery was abolished, instituted a number of laws to protect the serfs from abuse by their new masters, eh employers that is.

Read up on US Labor History. It's violent as hell.

Many think we live in democracies despite all the evidence that we live in oligarchies.

False dichotomy.  Every developed economy is oligarchic to one degree or another.  The question is in what ways and to what extents (especially with regards to who's more influential between the oligarchy and the public).


You're taking this as an article of faith and offering us blithe rationalization.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2018, 11:44:52 AM »
No. It was the old form of welfare. 

That is why the religions of that day did not speak against them and even endorsed it the way the bible does.

Regards
DL

Ask yourself how you would like being a slave?

What do you think we are all at present as we live in oligarchies?

Some of us are just blind to the field slaves from out position as well kept house slaves.

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Regards
DL

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2018, 01:21:00 PM »
edit: Aw, fuck it. 

P.S. Slavery is bad.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 01:48:52 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

 

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