Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 8877 times)

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Offline stands2reason

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2018, 12:38:35 PM »
Reproducing should not be considered a right under any circumstances. People should not be allowed to reproduce above replacement rate.

Societies shouldn't, but it can get very nasty if we try to actively stop individuals from reproducing, with poor people and minorities being at much greater risk of being interfered with by the government.

There are plenty of countries with below replacement fertility, with examples of how to reduce fertility rates without use of force. The Nordic countries all have at least 6 months of total leave (to be split between the parents), and fertility rates are below replacement.

Then we have a situation where the least socially conscious people (breeders) are overrepresented in the future population (i.e. Idiocracy). That is why I want fertility limits at the individual level.

Poor people basically are the only reason why the fertility rate is still above replacement level. Which is why this isn't a problem in North/West Europe or Japan. And poor breeders  generally beget more poor breeders.

Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2018, 01:57:09 PM »
In an over-populated world, I do not see everybody having an inalienable right to make more people. They want to have “a baby of their own”? Fuck them. That’s just selfish.

Selfish is too strong, and judgmental a term for something that can cause many couples years of emotional grief and depression.

Yes it would be nice if all non-fertile couples would adopt and that all couples (married, defacto, LGBTI etc) who can provide a safe and loving environment for a child, could adopt, but life is more complicated than that. If having a baby through IVF or any other scientific procedure can give a couple happiness, then why deny them that.

Because when every couple’s “happiness” depends on having a passel of babies, the planet cannot support the resulting mountain of babies. Note, and this is hugely important, that it’s not just a question of how many humans can the Earth feed; it’s a matter of maintaining an ecological balance while feeding them. We are already causing the worst mass extinction in the history of the world. Yes, the green revolution has enabled us to feed 7.53 billion people, but the cost has been such environmental destruction that we are exterminating the life of other creatures at breakneck speed. Morality aside, this is not sustainable.

You discount happiness too easily. I know women who have been clinically depressed and on medication because of their inability to have children. You are looking it as a black and white solution. Couple A want baby, Baby B need parents = Couple A adopt Baby B. It's not that simple. Some women want the whole experience of having a baby including the growing, anticipation, birth etc. As men we can't understand that fully.  There are hundreds of reasons why IVF is the answer to many couples. Some reasons may be selfish, but not all and that's their right to decide.

IVF only accounts for 4% of babies born in Australia each year. It's not a rate that's going to cause global over population.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 02:13:18 PM by Tassie Dave »

Offline DaKine Oregon

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2018, 02:02:01 PM »
Re: Nick Pyenson. On YouTube, the Field Museums's The Brain Scoop (featuring their Chief Curiosity Correspondent, Emily Graslie) this week visited NMNH's  Whale Warehouse with Dr. Michael McGowen, Curator of Marine Mammals.   


https://youtu.be/au4j36pQfVY

Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2018, 03:21:52 PM »
Poor people basically are the only reason why the fertility rate is still above replacement level.

Which is a great argument for doing our best to make fewer people poor.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2018, 09:46:26 AM »
In an over-populated world, I do not see everybody having an inalienable right to make more people. They want to have “a baby of their own”? Fuck them. That’s just selfish.

Selfish is too strong, and judgmental a term for something that can cause many couples years of emotional grief and depression.

Yes it would be nice if all non-fertile couples would adopt and that all couples (married, defacto, LGBTI etc) who can provide a safe and loving environment for a child, could adopt, but life is more complicated than that. If having a baby through IVF or any other scientific procedure can give a couple happiness, then why deny them that.

Because when every couple’s “happiness” depends on having a passel of babies, the planet cannot support the resulting mountain of babies. Note, and this is hugely important, that it’s not just a question of how many humans can the Earth feed; it’s a matter of maintaining an ecological balance while feeding them. We are already causing the worst mass extinction in the history of the world. Yes, the green revolution has enabled us to feed 7.53 billion people, but the cost has been such environmental destruction that we are exterminating the life of other creatures at breakneck speed. Morality aside, this is not sustainable.

You discount happiness too easily. I know women who have been clinically depressed and on medication because of their inability to have children. You are looking it as a black and white solution. Couple A want baby, Baby B need parents = Couple A adopt Baby B. It's not that simple. Some women want the whole experience of having a baby including the growing, anticipation, birth etc. As men we can't understand that fully.  There are hundreds of reasons why IVF is the answer to many couples. Some reasons may be selfish, but not all and that's their right to decide.

IVF only accounts for 4% of babies born in Australia each year. It's not a rate that's going to cause global over population.

I would argue that the solution is better education (stop indoctrinating little girls with the idea that their only value as human beings is having babies) and then treat the depression as the mental health issue it is rather than artificially making them pregnant.
Daniel
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Offline Skepmic

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2018, 06:26:10 PM »
Where is this place that treats depressed women with impregnation?

Offline Swagomatic

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2018, 06:49:03 PM »
In an over-populated world, I do not see everybody having an inalienable right to make more people. They want to have “a baby of their own”? Fuck them. That’s just selfish.

Selfish is too strong, and judgmental a term for something that can cause many couples years of emotional grief and depression.

Yes it would be nice if all non-fertile couples would adopt and that all couples (married, defacto, LGBTI etc) who can provide a safe and loving environment for a child, could adopt, but life is more complicated than that. If having a baby through IVF or any other scientific procedure can give a couple happiness, then why deny them that.

Because when every couple’s “happiness” depends on having a passel of babies, the planet cannot support the resulting mountain of babies. Note, and this is hugely important, that it’s not just a question of how many humans can the Earth feed; it’s a matter of maintaining an ecological balance while feeding them. We are already causing the worst mass extinction in the history of the world. Yes, the green revolution has enabled us to feed 7.53 billion people, but the cost has been such environmental destruction that we are exterminating the life of other creatures at breakneck speed. Morality aside, this is not sustainable.

You discount happiness too easily. I know women who have been clinically depressed and on medication because of their inability to have children. You are looking it as a black and white solution. Couple A want baby, Baby B need parents = Couple A adopt Baby B. It's not that simple. Some women want the whole experience of having a baby including the growing, anticipation, birth etc. As men we can't understand that fully.  There are hundreds of reasons why IVF is the answer to many couples. Some reasons may be selfish, but not all and that's their right to decide.

IVF only accounts for 4% of babies born in Australia each year. It's not a rate that's going to cause global over population.

I would argue that the solution is better education (stop indoctrinating little girls with the idea that their only value as human beings is having babies) and then treat the depression as the mental health issue it is rather than artificially making them pregnant.

I think most first world countries are very close to, or below, replacement levels of reproduction.  These are the countries in which IVF is or will be used.  The solution to overpopulation is education and economic development.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2018, 08:46:44 PM »
Where is this place that treats depressed women with impregnation?
High school


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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2018, 10:08:25 PM »
Where is this place that treats depressed women with impregnation?
High school


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That doesn’t even make any sense.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2018, 11:50:56 PM »
...that may be one of the best dark descriptions of high school I've ever seen.
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Offline Skepmic

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2018, 05:21:04 PM »
Can I get a source on this?

Online CarbShark

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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2018, 07:18:07 PM »
Can I get a source on this?

The risk of unintended pregnancy among young women with mental health symptoms
Social disparities in the relationship between depression and unintended pregnancy during adolescence and young adulthood

Your linked articles don’t provide any evidence for what you’re claiming; that high school is the ‘place where depressed women are treated with impregnation.’  Depressed people made bad decisions, including engaging in unprotected sex.  Your so-called treatment wouldn’t make the depression better, and anyway, if the students are in high school they’re not women, they’re teenagers.
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Online CarbShark

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Episode #700
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2018, 07:20:44 PM »
Fine. It was a good, darkly comic line.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 08:50:15 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2018, 03:53:55 AM »
What about a home woman, one child (tradeable) right.  Worldwide and all medically assisted child bearing treatments banned.  Rough, but not as rough as all the requirements to keep global temperatures reasonable.  Basically, the world is fucked if we don't make rather drastic measures now.
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