Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 21141 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #330 on: January 09, 2019, 01:18:56 PM »
I think that it’s ridiculous in the extreme to think that my referring to CarbShark as ‘he’ instead of ‘they’ is going to cause him distress, even cause him to commit suicide.

I look forward to the next time I offend a non-duality gender person by using the ‘wrong’ personal pronoun, which will be the first time.

As far as I’m concerned, non-duality gender politics is a non-issue.  I don’t take any interest in it.  It will be sorted out without my participation.

I suppose sometime or another, on a forum dealing with global warming, environmental degradation, species extinction or whaling, a non-duality gender person with a fragile psyche might take part, and might take offence and commit suicide if I happen to use the ‘wrong’ personal pronoun.  But I don’t see it happening.

For most people, the overwhelming majority of people, ‘he’ or ‘she’ are the correct 3rd person singular pronouns.
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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #331 on: January 09, 2019, 02:14:31 PM »
Are you purposely not understanding what is being written by others?  ???

It's almost like you are filtering out half of what's said.

Offline Swagomatic

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #332 on: January 09, 2019, 03:13:21 PM »
Yes, that is just intentional obtuseness.  He knows exactly what we all mean.  This discussion has become pointless.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #333 on: January 09, 2019, 04:04:00 PM »
Yes, that is just intentional obtuseness.  He knows exactly what we all mean.  This discussion has become pointless.

Yes, I do understand what you mean.  You want ‘they’ to apply to all persons in the singular to avoid ‘damaging’ the fragile psyche of the very small minority of non-binary gender persons, who can’t agree amongst themselves which pronoun they want other people to use if they ever actually refer to them (and not just addressing them directly).

It’s just political correctness gone mad.

I’m going to continue to use ‘he’ or ‘she’ when appropriate.  ‘They’ doesn’t apply to single persons.  If non-binary gender want a gender neutral pronoun, then they should devise one, not coopt ‘they.’

My second language is German.  I wondered what they’re doing about gender neutral language, since it’s riddled with gender, with all nouns having gender.  ‘sie’ means both ‘she’ and ‘they,’ so it’s not a ‘solution.’  I came across a suggestion; ‘Mein Freund ist nonbinary.  Dey möchte sich in deyren ganzheitlichen menschlichen Vielfalt abseits von Geschlechterrollen entfalten.’  Mein Freund is a masculine noun (there’s a feminine equivalent, die Freundin) and should take ‘er’ (he) instead of ‘dey,’ and ‘seiner’ (his) instead of ‘deyren,’ So the Germans ‘seem’ to be going down the path of devising a new gender neutral 3rd person singular pronoun.  ‘Der Freund’ is still masculine though (like der Tisch - the table), and whether it would catch on is debatable. 
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Offline Swagomatic

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #334 on: January 09, 2019, 04:13:21 PM »
You are certainly free to construe it as an attack on your freedom.  I choose to see it as giving a modicum of respect to an otherwise marginalized minority.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #335 on: January 09, 2019, 05:12:08 PM »
Yes, I do understand what you mean.  You want ‘they’ to apply to all persons in the singular to avoid ‘damaging’ the fragile psyche of the very small minority of non-binary gender persons, who can’t agree amongst themselves which pronoun they want other people to use if they ever actually refer to them (and not just addressing them directly).

Oh for fuck's sake NO!!!!!!! You have utterly failed to understand anything I have been saying. At this point I have to conclude that you are doing it deliberately, with the express intent to harm. There's just no other explanation.

Gender is ABSOLUTELY NOT a non-issue. It is EVERYBODY's problem. If you are not actively contributing to the solution then you are part of the problem. I know it's a bit of a cliche to say that, but it is true.

Please, please please, bachfiend. Even if you ignore everything else I say and have been saying, please please please take 40 minutes out of your day and listen to this podcast episode. It summarises nicely what I have been trying in vain to get across to you, including having actual credentialed endocrinologists and psychologists and with a long list of 136 citations on the transcript page. If you have any respect for science at all, you will listen, hear, read, understand, and change. Please. I beg you.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #336 on: January 09, 2019, 05:15:32 PM »
I wonder why you’re getting so upset?

I'm getting upset because I have trans and nonbinary friends, who have been actively harmed by attitudes such as yours. If you witnessed someone abusing someone, would you try to get them to stop? According to many (including me), forcing nonbinary people into binary gender roles by refusing to use their preferred names and pronouns is abuse. You have openly stated your intent to abuse. That's why I'm upset. I'm more upset by this than just about any other forum argument I have had recently.

I'm going to try to take a break from this thread now. Please don't say anything else so vacuously stupid.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #337 on: January 09, 2019, 05:23:47 PM »
Huh. We all have our blind spots. Skeptics usually try to educate ourselves when we are exposed to our blind spots. In this domain at least, bachfiend is not a skeptic. Too bad.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #338 on: January 09, 2019, 05:57:59 PM »
You are certainly free to construe it as an attack on your freedom.  I choose to see it as giving a modicum of respect to an otherwise marginalized minority.

‘An otherwise marginalised minority’ that’s insisting that their choice of 3rd person singular pronoun (about which they can’t even agree) should be used by everyone when they’re talking or writing about but not to them.  And somehow or other, I’m supposed to intuit whether I’m writing or speaking about someone of non-binary gender, and use whatever pronoun that person wants.

No.  I’m going to use ‘he’ or ‘she’ as appropriate.  And if I do turn out to be writing about a non-binary gender person, and I get ‘complaints,’ then I’ll just drop using pronouns and repeat the person’s name when necessary.

This is just political correctness gone mad.
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Offline Swagomatic

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #339 on: January 09, 2019, 06:04:30 PM »
You are certainly free to construe it as an attack on your freedom.  I choose to see it as giving a modicum of respect to an otherwise marginalized minority.

‘An otherwise marginalised minority’ that’s insisting that their choice of 3rd person singular pronoun (about which they can’t even agree) should be used by everyone when they’re talking or writing about but not to them.  And somehow or other, I’m supposed to intuit whether I’m writing or speaking about someone of non-binary gender, and use whatever pronoun that person wants.

No.  I’m going to use ‘he’ or ‘she’ as appropriate.  And if I do turn out to be writing about a non-binary gender person, and I get ‘complaints,’ then I’ll just drop using pronouns and repeat the person’s name when necessary.

This is just political correctness gone mad.

That'll show 'em!!
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Offline fuzzyMarmot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #340 on: January 09, 2019, 06:12:49 PM »
Huh. We all have our blind spots. Skeptics usually try to educate ourselves when we are exposed to our blind spots. In this domain at least, bachfiend is not a skeptic. Too bad.

Nailed it.

bachfiend, I wish you would educate yourself on transgender issues. You seem unwilling to do so. I hope that this is due to ignorance, not animus.

In a couple years I bet you'll look back and be terribly ashamed.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #341 on: January 09, 2019, 06:37:35 PM »
Huh. We all have our blind spots. Skeptics usually try to educate ourselves when we are exposed to our blind spots. In this domain at least, bachfiend is not a skeptic. Too bad.

Nailed it.

bachfiend, I wish you would educate yourself on transgender issues. You seem unwilling to do so. I hope that this is due to ignorance, not animus.

In a couple years I bet you'll look back and be terribly ashamed.

No, in a couple of years, I won’t be looking back and be terribly ashamed.  I don’t have any animus to non-binary gender people.  If a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun is considered necessary, then one should be devised, not coopting ‘they,’ and perverting its meaning.  I’m sort of warming to the suggestion in the German language for dey/deyren (which also have the advantage of appearing not needing to be declined).  English should do something similar, and when it’s settled, I’ll go along with it.  But I won’t accept the misuse of ‘they,’ which just creates ambiguity with very little benefit.

Non-binary gender people do have considerable problems, which need to be addressed, but the choice of the personal pronoun in the 3rd person isn’t anywhere near the top of the list of problems and obstacles they face. 

arthwollipot precipitated this argument when he referred to CarbShark’ as ‘they,’ even though CarbShark’s male, and there’s no indication that he’s of non-binary gender. 

The argument arthwollipot used was that he is trying to avoid gender specific language by using ‘they’ generally, not just because he’s ignorant of the person’s gender.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #342 on: January 09, 2019, 06:47:10 PM »
Huh. We all have our blind spots. Skeptics usually try to educate ourselves when we are exposed to our blind spots. In this domain at least, bachfiend is not a skeptic. Too bad.

Nailed it.

bachfiend, I wish you would educate yourself on transgender issues. You seem unwilling to do so. I hope that this is due to ignorance, not animus.

In a couple years I bet you'll look back and be terribly ashamed.

No, in a couple of years, I won’t be looking back and be terribly ashamed.  I don’t have any animus to non-binary gender people.  If a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun is considered necessary, then one should be devised, not coopting ‘they,’ and perverting its meaning.  I’m sort of warming to the suggestion in the German language for dey/deyren (which also have the advantage of appearing not needing to be declined).  English should do something similar, and when it’s settled, I’ll go along with it.  But I won’t accept the misuse of ‘they,’ which just creates ambiguity with very little benefit.

Non-binary gender people do have considerable problems, which need to be addressed, but the choice of the personal pronoun in the 3rd person isn’t anywhere near the top of the list of problems and obstacles they face. 

arthwollipot precipitated this argument when he referred to CarbShark’ as ‘they,’ even though CarbShark’s male, and there’s no indication that he’s of non-binary gender. 

The argument arthwollipot used was that he is trying to avoid gender specific language by using ‘they’ generally, not just because he’s ignorant of the person’s gender.

Arthwollipot used a perfectly acceptable use of the word "they."  Acceptability does not depend on ignorance or the ease of ascertainment or political correctness or anything else.

You have been shown multiple sources that show use of the word in that way is now acceptable. You have not provided any evidence whatsoever (modern or outdated) that it's not.

It's just your own personal preference.

And then you insult anyone who disagrees with you.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #343 on: January 09, 2019, 07:12:09 PM »
Huh. We all have our blind spots. Skeptics usually try to educate ourselves when we are exposed to our blind spots. In this domain at least, bachfiend is not a skeptic. Too bad.

Nailed it.

bachfiend, I wish you would educate yourself on transgender issues. You seem unwilling to do so. I hope that this is due to ignorance, not animus.

In a couple years I bet you'll look back and be terribly ashamed.

No, in a couple of years, I won’t be looking back and be terribly ashamed.  I don’t have any animus to non-binary gender people.  If a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun is considered necessary, then one should be devised, not coopting ‘they,’ and perverting its meaning.  I’m sort of warming to the suggestion in the German language for dey/deyren (which also have the advantage of appearing not needing to be declined).  English should do something similar, and when it’s settled, I’ll go along with it.  But I won’t accept the misuse of ‘they,’ which just creates ambiguity with very little benefit.

Non-binary gender people do have considerable problems, which need to be addressed, but the choice of the personal pronoun in the 3rd person isn’t anywhere near the top of the list of problems and obstacles they face. 

arthwollipot precipitated this argument when he referred to CarbShark’ as ‘they,’ even though CarbShark’s male, and there’s no indication that he’s of non-binary gender. 

The argument arthwollipot used was that he is trying to avoid gender specific language by using ‘they’ generally, not just because he’s ignorant of the person’s gender.

Arthwollipot used a perfectly acceptable use of the word "they."  Acceptability does not depend on ignorance or the ease of ascertainment or political correctness or anything else.

You have been shown multiple sources that show use of the word in that way is now acceptable. You have not provided any evidence whatsoever (modern or outdated) that it's not.

It's just your own personal preference.

And then you insult anyone who disagrees with you.

The use of ‘they’ referring to single specified persons of readily ascertainable gender is not generally acceptable to many people.  It being used by some, perhaps many people doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable.  Usage isn’t the same as acceptance.

There are valid uses of the ‘singular they.’  Including ‘anyone can succeed if they try’ instead of ‘anyone can succeed if he tries.’  But historically, the ‘singular they’ has never been used for single specified persons.  It’s ‘I saw John Smith this morning.  He is the chairman of the ABC Corporation,’ not ‘I saw John Smith this morning.  They are the chair of the ABC Corporation.’

The misuse of the ‘singular they’ is a modern abuse due to political correctness gone mad.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #344 on: January 09, 2019, 07:19:22 PM »
The use of ‘they’ referring to single specified persons of readily ascertainable gender is not generally acceptable to many people.  It being used by some, perhaps many people doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable.  Usage isn’t the same as acceptance.

There are valid uses of the ‘singular they.’  Including ‘anyone can succeed if they try’ instead of ‘anyone can succeed if he tries.’  But historically, the ‘singular they’ has never been used for single specified persons.  It’s ‘I saw John Smith this morning.  He is the chairman of the ABC Corporation,’ not ‘I saw John Smith this morning.  They are the chair of the ABC Corporation.’

The misuse of the ‘singular they’ is a modern abuse due to political correctness gone mad.

Not a single thing you've just posted in this is correct or supported or relevant.

The most authoritative sources for what's acceptable in the English language are dictionaries and style guides.

At this point you are simply trolling. (Which is probably what you've been doing all along on this and other topics).

 
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.