Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 21920 times)

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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #405 on: February 07, 2019, 03:37:07 PM »
Resurrecting another dead thread:

This is an interesting interview with a copy editor. At the end of the interview they discuss the use of "they" as a non-gendered pronoun.



Fresh Air by NPR on Apple Podcasts


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Random House Copy Chief / Inside The 1954 'Star Is Born'
ReleasedFeb 05, 2019

Dreyer is the copy chief for Random House. He talks with Terry Gross about collaborating with authors, passive voice, and gender neutral pronouns. His new book is 'Dreyer's English: An Utterly Correct Guide to Clarity and Style.' But, he says, "the last thing that I want to do is pass myself off as some sort of ferocious gatekeeper."  ...

Here's a direct link:



Random House Copy Chief: Stand Tall, Wordsmiths! (But Choose Your Battles) : NPR


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The last thing that I want to do is to pass myself off as some sort of ferocious gatekeeper who — in some sort of argument about the purity and the wonder of the English language, and how it must be preserved — is simply being unkind and cruel to other human beings.

Talk about resurrecting a dead thread.  But as noted, it’s not necessary to use the ‘singular they’ if you object to it.  You don’t have to use any pronoun.  Using the person’s name or a singular descriptor such as ‘colleague’ is clearer in indicating that you’re referring to a single identified person, not two or more people.  Whenever I come across ‘they’ in a text, I often feel the need to go back in the text to see if I’ve missed mention of another person being referred to.

And it’s very much overreach using ‘they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun just in case the person is transgender or of non-binary gender, and might possibly object to ‘he’ or ‘she.’  There are many more people who’d object to being referred to as ‘they.’

Transgender and non-binary gender people might have reason for complaint if English had gendered 2nd person singular pronouns (which it doesn’t), and were referred to directly face-to-face with the wrong gendered ‘you.’  Being referred to with the ‘wrong’ 3rd person singular pronoun shouldn’t be of concern, provided the comment is respectful.  Rhea Butcher prefers ‘they,’ but she’s on record as stating that she doesn’t mind ‘she’ provided the comment is respectful, which my comment referring to her is.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #406 on: February 10, 2019, 06:16:52 PM »
Administrator Comment Intentionally misgendering trans and non binary people is not respectful. It is a breach of the forum rules on hate speech and will not be tolerated.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #407 on: February 10, 2019, 07:35:02 PM »
Administrator Comment Intentionally misgendering trans and non binary people is not respectful. It is a breach of the forum rules on hate speech and will not be tolerated.

I have never knowingly misgendered a transgender or non-binary gender person.  I don’t know of any, I don’t visit transgender or non-binary gender websites, and I feel justified in assuming that if a person’s name is John Smith then he wants to be referred to as ‘he’ instead of ‘they.’  If John Smith is transgender, then he’s probably changed his name to ‘Joan Smith,’ in which case I’ll use ‘she.’ 

I flatly refuse to use the ‘singular they’ to refer to single identified persons of readily identifiable gender as the default pronoun.  If the single identified person is of uncertain gender, then I avoid a pronoun (neither ‘he’ nor ‘they’ as the default), instead just repeating the person’s name, or a title, or whatever.

Clear?

I’ve reread my previous comment and I now realise the objection was to my using ‘she’ to refer to Rhea Butcher who prefers ‘they.’  But anyway, here’s the link to where Rhea Butcher states no objection to ‘she’ being used in comments provided the comment is respectful.  A respectful comment with ‘she’ being more acceptable than a disrespectful comment with ‘they.’  Notice I’ve avoided using ‘she’ or ‘they.’

https://mobile.twitter.com/RheaButcher/status/979792359096553477

And why would Rhea Butcher take any offence anyway to a reference on a single webpage on an obscure and really insignificant website of very little importance? 
 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 10:02:49 PM by bachfiend »
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #408 on: February 10, 2019, 10:40:53 PM »
Jordan Peterson?
#non-belief denialist

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #409 on: February 10, 2019, 11:01:56 PM »
Jordan Peterson?

No, I’m not.  I had to Google to find out who he is.  He has many views I disagree with.  I’m a small-l liberal (not ‘progressive’).  I think governments should not interfere unnecessarily with people’s lives.  I don’t regard gender to be an important factor in assessing other people.  I agree that sexism is pernicious, and should be avoided.  I think it’s wrong that in Australia, women are still being paid less than men for doing the same job.  I agree that often the best man for a job is a woman.  I’m pleased that the politicians representing me in my electorate, state and national, are both women.  And in the state parliament, my electorate has always had women MLAs (members of the legislative assembly).  Never a man.  The one time the conservative Liberals put up a man to replace his wife, who was retiring from parliament, he lost (I’d actually supported a strong independent female candidate at that election).
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #410 on: February 11, 2019, 12:31:32 AM »
Every person who prefers they/them is disrespected and misgendered when anyone refuses to use those pronouns for any reason. What's wrong with referring to them the way they prefer to be referred? Nothing.

http://www.robot-hugs.com/pronoun-etiquette/
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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #411 on: February 11, 2019, 12:44:58 AM »
Every person who prefers they/them is disrespected and misgendered when anyone refuses to use those pronouns for any reason. What's wrong with referring to them the way they prefer to be referred? Nothing.

http://www.robot-hugs.com/pronoun-etiquette/

But most people prefer being referred to as ‘he’ or ‘she’ instead of ‘they.’  Using ‘they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun just in case the person being referred to is transgender or of non-binary gender and prefers ‘they’ (or some other alternative such as ‘dem’ or my ‘dey’) is just overreach.

If I know the person prefers ‘they’ I usually won’t use it.  I’ll use repeats of the person’s same or a job description to avoid using the pronoun.  I used ‘she’ to refer to Rhea Butcher to be provocative.  And knowing that Rhea Butcher is extremely unlikely to look at this very obscure and insignificant website having better things to do.
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #412 on: February 11, 2019, 01:06:00 AM »
Okay, let's do this again.

But most people prefer being referred to as ‘he’ or ‘she’ instead of ‘they.’

Irrelevant. If a particular person wants you to use a particular pronoun, you should use that pronoun.

Using ‘they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun just in case the person being referred to is transgender or of non-binary gender and prefers ‘they’ (or some other alternative such as ‘dem’ or my ‘dey’) is just overreach.

No, it's prudence and politeness.

If I know the person prefers ‘they’ I usually won’t use it.

And by doing so you disrespect and misgender them. It's a horrible thing to do.

I’ll use repeats of the person’s same or a job description to avoid using the pronoun.

Really? You will genuinely repeat Rhea Butcher's name to avoid using Rhea Butcher's preferred pronoun? Even when Rhea Butcher has specifically and directly requested that you refer to Rhea Butcher using a particular pronoun? That is not only very disrespectful to Rhea Butcher, it can cause Rhea Butcher (and all trans and nonbinary people) direct harm.

Quote
Misgendering can have negative consequences for a transgender person’s self-confidence and overall mental health.

A 2014 study in the journal Self and Identity, asked transgender people about their experiences with being misgendered.

Researchers found that:

32.8 percent of participants reported feeling very stigmatized when misgendered.
Genderqueer folks, and people who had taken fewer steps in the transition process, were most likely to be misgendered.
Those who were misgendered more frequently felt that their identity was very important, but experienced lower self-esteem around their appearance.
They also had a reduced sense of strength and continuity in their identity.
“Where I'm at school now there are way less trans and nonbinary folks, no visible trans community, and while our equity training included a video on pronouns, none of my professors or colleagues have ever asked what my pronouns are,” N., 27, said. “When someone misgenders me at school I just get this shock of painful tension throughout my body.”

When you misgender someone, you also run the risk of outing them to other people. It’s never anyone’s right or responsibility to out a person who is transgender without their express consent. It’s a trans person’s right and their right alone to tell others that they’re transgender, depending on whether they wish to be out or not.

Outing a trans person is not only disrespectful of their boundaries, but can also result in that person experiencing harassment and discrimination.

And, discrimination is a major issue for the trans community. The 2015 U.S. Trans Survey found these startling statistics:

33 percent of trans people surveyed had at least one experience of discrimination when seeking medical treatment.
27 percent of respondents reported some form of employment discrimination, whether it was being fired, mistreated at work, or not hired because of their identity.
77 percent of people who were out in K-12, and 24 percent of those who were out in college or vocational school, experienced mistreatment in those settings.

I've posted this lengthy excerpt because I'm pretty sure you don't bother to click on the links I provide. Here it is anyway.

I used ‘she’ to refer to Rhea Butcher to be provocative.  And knowing that Rhea Butcher is extremely unlikely to look at this very obscure and insignificant website having better things to do.

That is a really shitty thing to do. It doesn't matter whether they look at this site or not. You're misgendering them. That is bad.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #413 on: February 11, 2019, 01:26:10 AM »
Look at the link I’ve provided from Rhea Butcher.  Rhea Butcher states there’s no objection to using the name instead.

And I’m extremely unlikely to refer to Rhea Butcher ever again.

Gendered 3rd person singular pronouns to refer to persons not present is a non-problem compared to trying to work out whether to address a person as ‘Mr,’ ‘Mrs,’ ‘Miss,’ ‘Ms’ or ‘Mz’ (or some variant).  I usually don’t use any.  It’s usually obvious whom I’m talking with in a social setting.

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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #414 on: February 11, 2019, 01:32:37 AM »
Look at the link I’ve provided from Rhea Butcher.  Rhea Butcher states there’s no objection to using the name instead.

And I’m extremely unlikely to refer to Rhea Butcher ever again.

Again, irrelevant. It's about your habits and opinions and what you will do in the future, not one specific example.

Gendered 3rd person singular pronouns to refer to persons not present is a non-problem compared to trying to work out whether to address a person as ‘Mr,’ ‘Mrs,’ ‘Miss,’ ‘Ms’ or ‘Mz’ (or some variant).  I usually don’t use any.  It’s usually obvious whom I’m talking with in a social setting.

Okay, fess up now. Did you click and read the link I provided in my previous post? Do so. Misgendering of trans and nonbinary people is a BIG problem. Your stated intention to ignore a person's preferred pronoun is a BIG problem.

And now I'm done with this argument again for the good of my blood pressure. Read some shit, bachfiend. Read some shit and become a better person.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #415 on: February 11, 2019, 06:05:17 AM »
Look at the link I’ve provided from Rhea Butcher.  Rhea Butcher states there’s no objection to using the name instead.

And I’m extremely unlikely to refer to Rhea Butcher ever again.

Again, irrelevant. It's about your habits and opinions and what you will do in the future, not one specific example.

Gendered 3rd person singular pronouns to refer to persons not present is a non-problem compared to trying to work out whether to address a person as ‘Mr,’ ‘Mrs,’ ‘Miss,’ ‘Ms’ or ‘Mz’ (or some variant).  I usually don’t use any.  It’s usually obvious whom I’m talking with in a social setting.

Okay, fess up now. Did you click and read the link I provided in my previous post? Do so. Misgendering of trans and nonbinary people is a BIG problem. Your stated intention to ignore a person's preferred pronoun is a BIG problem.

And now I'm done with this argument again for the good of my blood pressure. Read some shit, bachfiend. Read some shit and become a better person.

I’m a senile old fart.  I have minimal if any contact with the adolescents and young people who have emotional turmoil regarding doubts about their gender identity.  I agree that bullying of vulnerable individuals in schools and on social media is a major problem.  I agree that the Safe Schools programme is a good idea.  I never use social media, not even Facebook (does it still exist?).

Anyway.  How do you address people?  ‘Mr, Mrs or Miss?’  Or ‘Ms?’  Or ‘Mz?’
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #416 on: February 11, 2019, 09:42:59 AM »
Look at the link I’ve provided from Rhea Butcher.  Rhea Butcher states there’s no objection to using the name instead.

And I’m extremely unlikely to refer to Rhea Butcher ever again.

Gendered 3rd person singular pronouns to refer to persons not present is a non-problem compared to trying to work out whether to address a person as ‘Mr,’ ‘Mrs,’ ‘Miss,’ ‘Ms’ or ‘Mz’ (or some variant).  I usually don’t use any.  It’s usually obvious whom I’m talking with in a social setting.

No, you're misinterpreting that thread.  Read farther down it.  Rhea says very clearly that they don't hold anything against people who use 'she' or 'he' in an honest way, the continued use of such terms after being ASKED to use different pronouns isn't ok.

That seems very clear to me, and I'm just as old as you.

Look, I have a hard time remembering to properly use the pronouns people ask me to use. I mess it up all the time but I'm trying to get better and be accommodating.

Continuing to use the pronouns that someone asks you not to use is purely and simply a dick move and it makes you an asshole.

#non-belief denialist

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #417 on: February 11, 2019, 09:43:44 AM »
#non-belief denialist

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #418 on: February 11, 2019, 10:39:13 AM »
Look at the link I’ve provided from Rhea Butcher.  Rhea Butcher states there’s no objection to using the name instead.

And I’m extremely unlikely to refer to Rhea Butcher ever again.

Gendered 3rd person singular pronouns to refer to persons not present is a non-problem compared to trying to work out whether to address a person as ‘Mr,’ ‘Mrs,’ ‘Miss,’ ‘Ms’ or ‘Mz’ (or some variant).  I usually don’t use any.  It’s usually obvious whom I’m talking with in a social setting.

No, you're misinterpreting that thread.  Read farther down it.  Rhea says very clearly that they don't hold anything against people who use 'she' or 'he' in an honest way, the continued use of such terms after being ASKED to use different pronouns isn't ok.

That seems very clear to me, and I'm just as old as you.

Look, I have a hard time remembering to properly use the pronouns people ask me to use. I mess it up all the time but I'm trying to get better and be accommodating.

Continuing to use the pronouns that someone asks you not to use is purely and simply a dick move and it makes you an asshole.
I screw it up all the time, but my friends smile and say that what matters is that I am trying.
They are very gracious and patient, but if I were just refusing to use their pronouns I suspect we would not be friends.

Edit- I have also known trans people in their 50s and I know there are trans people of all ages. Being old is not an excuse and the odds that one has never met a trans or non binary person are very slim.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 10:50:54 AM by Harry Black »

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #419 on: February 11, 2019, 11:12:09 AM »
I don’t know whether I’ve ever met a transgender or non-binary gender person, because I regard a person’s gender identity to be of no concern to me.  I treat everyone equally.  I can’t think of any social situation in which I’d be referring to a person in the 3rd person singular when that person is physically present to be able to take offence at my using the ‘wrong’ pronoun.  I might use the ‘wrong’ pronoun commenting on obscure websites such as this, but not on social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, because I don’t use them.  Never have.  I’ve consistently argued that when you’re referring to single identified persons of readily determined gender, ‘they’ should not be used as the default 3rd person singular pronoun.  I stress the ‘readily determined gender.’  Most people do have a readily determined gender, with an appropriate 3rd person singular pronoun.  I agree that if there’s a need for a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  I think the suggested German one of ‘dey’ is a good one, and should be employed. 
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