Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 18311 times)

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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #420 on: February 11, 2019, 12:53:09 PM »
I don’t know whether I’ve ever met a transgender or non-binary gender person, because I regard a person’s gender identity to be of no concern to me.  I treat everyone equally.  I can’t think of any social situation in which I’d be referring to a person in the 3rd person singular when that person is physically present to be able to take offence at my using the ‘wrong’ pronoun.  I might use the ‘wrong’ pronoun commenting on obscure websites such as this, but not on social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, because I don’t use them.  Never have.  I’ve consistently argued that when you’re referring to single identified persons of readily determined gender, ‘they’ should not be used as the default 3rd person singular pronoun.  I stress the ‘readily determined gender.’  Most people do have a readily determined gender, with an appropriate 3rd person singular pronoun.  I agree that if there’s a need for a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  I think the suggested German one of ‘dey’ is a good one, and should be employed.

No one claimed you didn't treat anyone equally, well, except that you're treating people differently.  Lets say you find out that someone you've never met before but know on the internet been referring to as 'he/him' turns out to actually be a woman.  Would you continue to insist on referring to that person as 'he/him' or would you change?

You seem to be arguing that if the victim of your disrespect doesn't see the disrespect, it's completely fine to continue to disrespect them.  That seems very wrong to me.

You're using the precise argument that Jordan B Peterson uses.  It really boils down to 'if I want to be a jerk, I'm going to be a jerk'

Seriously, I don't get it.  If someone asks you to refer to them in a certain way, then why is it so damn difficult to do so?  I really don't get the insistence and intransigence on this.

If I found out your name was really 'Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F'tang-F'tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel'   I might chuckle a bit, but I'd certainly use it and any appropriate pronouns you asked me to, EVEN IF I didn't know you and EVEN IF there was precisely ZERO chance I'd ever interact with you in person.  I owe you that much respect.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #421 on: February 11, 2019, 01:19:44 PM »
I will use “they” when referring to a person who I know or believe prefers that pronoun. I will not quit using he or she across the board in favor of using they exclusively merely because some people prefer they. To do so would be to disrespect people who prefer he or she.

When referring to someone specific, always use the pronoun that person prefers. When referring to unspecified persons, I think it’s acceptable to use whatever grammatical conventions you prefer.
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Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #422 on: February 11, 2019, 01:36:47 PM »
I think the suggested German one of ‘dey’ is a good one, and should be employed.

Stop trying to make fetch happen  :P
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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #423 on: February 11, 2019, 01:53:32 PM »
I don’t know whether I’ve ever met a transgender or non-binary gender person, because I regard a person’s gender identity to be of no concern to me.

You live in a city of near 2 million people. You may not recognise them, but I'm sure you have been around transgender and/or non-binary gender people.


Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #424 on: February 11, 2019, 02:36:27 PM »
I don’t know whether I’ve ever met a transgender or non-binary gender person, because I regard a person’s gender identity to be of no concern to me.  I treat everyone equally.  I can’t think of any social situation in which I’d be referring to a person in the 3rd person singular when that person is physically present to be able to take offence at my using the ‘wrong’ pronoun.  I might use the ‘wrong’ pronoun commenting on obscure websites such as this, but not on social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, because I don’t use them.  Never have.  I’ve consistently argued that when you’re referring to single identified persons of readily determined gender, ‘they’ should not be used as the default 3rd person singular pronoun.  I stress the ‘readily determined gender.’  Most people do have a readily determined gender, with an appropriate 3rd person singular pronoun.  I agree that if there’s a need for a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  I think the suggested German one of ‘dey’ is a good one, and should be employed.

No one claimed you didn't treat anyone equally, well, except that you're treating people differently.  Lets say you find out that someone you've never met before but know on the internet been referring to as 'he/him' turns out to actually be a woman.  Would you continue to insist on referring to that person as 'he/him' or would you change?

You seem to be arguing that if the victim of your disrespect doesn't see the disrespect, it's completely fine to continue to disrespect them.  That seems very wrong to me.

You're using the precise argument that Jordan B Peterson uses.  It really boils down to 'if I want to be a jerk, I'm going to be a jerk'

Seriously, I don't get it.  If someone asks you to refer to them in a certain way, then why is it so damn difficult to do so?  I really don't get the insistence and intransigence on this.

If I found out your name was really 'Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F'tang-F'tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel'   I might chuckle a bit, but I'd certainly use it and any appropriate pronouns you asked me to, EVEN IF I didn't know you and EVEN IF there was precisely ZERO chance I'd ever interact with you in person.  I owe you that much respect.

My practice is that if I don’t know the gender of a person on the Internet, I don’t assume that the person is male and use ‘he’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun.  There’s a tendency by some authors to use ‘she’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun, particularly when referring to a generic person, which I generally think is a good idea.

I’m a little more circumspect, either not using pronouns, or ‘he or she,’ or (s)he.

Tassie Dave,

Undoubtedly I have been in the vicinity of transgender or non-binary gender persons.  But I have never needed to refer to them in the 3rd person singular to have to decide whether to use ‘he’ or ‘she.’  And I don’t need to use the 3rd person singular pronoun if I happen to talk to them.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #425 on: February 11, 2019, 07:04:09 PM »
Let me be very clear.
No one cares about your suggestion of 'dey' (though it is how people in my town pronounce "they").

Intentionally using pronouns other than those specified by individuals, whether they are here or not, is offensive to trans and non binary people and is a common form that bigotry against them takes.
No one cares about your odds of meeting a trans or non binary person, it is simply against the rules to not give them this very basic level of respect. If you dont like the rules of this forum, you are free to use the metaphorical door.

Also-
Moderator Comment Productive discussion in this thread has long since ceased, it is being watched very closely with a view to being locked.

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #426 on: February 11, 2019, 07:03:23 PM »
Oops! Double post! What a use of my 15000th post! ;D
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 06:05:57 AM by Harry Black »

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #427 on: February 11, 2019, 07:56:05 PM »
I don’t know whether I’ve ever met a transgender or non-binary gender person, because I regard a person’s gender identity to be of no concern to me.  I treat everyone equally. ...

Treating everyone the same can be disrespectful. When a person chooses to keep their gender identity private, then it is no business of anyone else’s. But when a person chooses to make their gender identity public, or to reveal it to you, that is when it becomes disrespectful to treat them as if you didn’t know, or to treat them the same as you would treat anyone else.

This applies to people you meet in real life, and to public figures you may happen to discuss on a chat board. Though honestly not knowing who the person is, or which pronouns they prefer, is an excuse.

Transgender people especially have to deal with bigoted assholes insisting that their gender is the one associated with the genitals they were born with. This is one reason why insisting on using other pronouns can be so hurtful. If here were no bigotry, no violence against non conforming people, no national campaigns to take away their rights, then it’s likely that nobody would care that much about a few people insisting on using anachronistic grammatical conventions.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #428 on: February 11, 2019, 08:53:22 PM »
I don’t know whether I’ve ever met a transgender or non-binary gender person, because I regard a person’s gender identity to be of no concern to me.  I treat everyone equally. ...

Treating everyone the same can be disrespectful. When a person chooses to keep their gender identity private, then it is no business of anyone else’s. But when a person chooses to make their gender identity public, or to reveal it to you, that is when it becomes disrespectful to treat them as if you didn’t know, or to treat them the same as you would treat anyone else.

This applies to people you meet in real life, and to public figures you may happen to discuss on a chat board. Though honestly not knowing who the person is, or which pronouns they prefer, is an excuse.

Transgender people especially have to deal with bigoted assholes insisting that their gender is the one associated with the genitals they were born with. This is one reason why insisting on using other pronouns can be so hurtful. If here were no bigotry, no violence against non conforming people, no national campaigns to take away their rights, then it’s likely that nobody would care that much about a few people insisting on using anachronistic grammatical conventions.

But what if I think that the best man for a job is often a woman?  Or a transgender person?  Or a person of non-binary gender?  Or if I don’t assume that because a person is male that he’s dominating and aggressive?  Or if I don’t assume that because a person is female that she’s caring and nurturing?  That’s what I mean by treating everyone equally.  I don’t ascribe gender identifiers onto people.

And what if I’m quite happy to use the preferred pronoun provided it’s ‘he’ or ‘she,’ if the person is transgender?  And what if I refuse to use any pronoun if the preferred pronoun is ‘they?’  There are ways of getting around having to use pronouns. 

I only referred to the comedian Rhea Butcher because someone else noted that ‘Rhea’ is ambiguous as to gender, and asked which pronoun I’d use, with gender not being readily identifiable.  I had to look at the Wikipedia page to inform myself.  Rhea’s brand of comedy is not to my taste (I prefer Billy Connelly until, alas, his heath deteriorated).  Just to be provocative to my critics (but not to Rhea Butcher), I deliberately used the ‘wrong’ 3rd person singular pronoun.  Otherwise, I probably wouldn’t have referred to Rhea.  Or only did a superficial reading, and used ‘she’ as a result of ignorance.  I wish I hadn’t done what I did.

There are greater problems than the choice of 3rd person singular pronouns.  Do you address people with Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms or Mz (or variations thereof if the person is of non-binary gender)?  And how do you decide?  Do you need to ask the person beforehand?  I suppose if the person has a definite preference, then I’d be told - and I’d use that one.  I don’t have any objection to using Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms or Mz as requested by the person.  But nowadays, the situation doesn’t arise for me.  Perhaps decades ago when I was in clinical medicine i might have offended someone with the wrong one.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #429 on: February 11, 2019, 09:13:42 PM »
Do you address people with Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms or Mz

Personally I stopped using patriarchal honorifics in the 80s. Australia is a first-name culture. We're talking specifically about pronouns. Honorifics are irrelevant.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #430 on: February 11, 2019, 09:38:07 PM »
Do you address people with Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms or Mz

Personally I stopped using patriarchal honorifics in the 80s. Australia is a first-name culture. We're talking specifically about pronouns. Honorifics are irrelevant.

I still get addressed as Mr.  Often I also get addressed as Dr, but I have to point out that I’ve been struck off the medical registry - twice (just to show how important I am), and I’m not entitled to that honorific.  The Australian Taxation Office still writes to me as Dr, but you can’t tell the ATO anything.
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #431 on: February 12, 2019, 11:14:48 AM »

I don’t ascribe gender identifiers onto people.


Ahhh, the ever popular 'I don't see color' defense.

Come on bachfiend you're just making it worse and worse. 

ETA:  Wait, weren't you just arguing that you would use he/she pronouns until someone requested a different one.  And then, if they said 'use they please' you would immediately switch to using their name instead of their preferred pronoun?  What is happening here?

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Offline Billzbub

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #432 on: February 12, 2019, 02:57:17 PM »
The sexual harassment training I just took at work today specifically says that not respecting a transgendered person's desire to be referred to as "they" can be considered harassment if it creates a hostile work environment.  It even illustrated the concept with two actors playing out a scene where one person was mocking the concept to the other by saying "What are we supposed to say?  They is invited to the meeting?"
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #433 on: February 12, 2019, 03:31:00 PM »

I don’t ascribe gender identifiers onto people.


Ahhh, the ever popular 'I don't see color' defense.

Come on bachfiend you're just making it worse and worse. 

ETA:  Wait, weren't you just arguing that you would use he/she pronouns until someone requested a different one.  And then, if they said 'use they please' you would immediately switch to using their name instead of their preferred pronoun?  What is happening here?

I’m a retired medical practitioner with very limited social contacts.  And I was an anatomical pathologist before I retired, so I was a lab rat, not a clinician dealing with the general public daily.  All the statements that I’d refer to persons as ‘he’ or ‘she’ until I’m told to use ‘they’ when I would just revert to using the person’s name are entirely hypothetical.

My social contacts nowadays are direct - with ‘you’ being the natural pronoun.  And ‘you’ is non-gendered.

I’m out of this argument.  I’m wasting too much time on it.  My argument all along is that ‘they’ should not be the default 3rd person singular pronoun for single specified persons of readily identified gender.  The singular they is OK for single generic persons, to avoid using ‘he’ as the default pronoun.  Some authors use ‘she,’ which is also OK, being reverse sexism, a sort of affirmative action.  If it’s considered desirable to have a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be devised.  I’ve suggested ‘dey’ to rhyme with ‘they.’  Someone has argued that some people will mispronounce ‘dey’ to sound like ‘they,’ but so what?  They probably would have been using ‘they’ anyway.

The important words are readily identified gender.  A transgender person has a preferred gender, so use the preferred gender pronoun.  Almost all people have a readily identified gender.  The number of non-binary gender persons is too low to justify making ‘they’ the default 3rd person singular pronoun.  The proportion of the ‘never married’ is much higher, but no one seems worried that it’s assumed that every adult has a spouse, or that travel offer ‘bargains’ are always quoted ‘twin share.’  We singles don’t get to complain.
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #434 on: February 12, 2019, 06:01:16 PM »
As is normally the case, we're now talking about two different things.

bachfiend:  If a transgendered person requested that you use the pronouns 'they/them' would you do so?  If the answer is yes, then I have no quarrel with you.

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