Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 25504 times)

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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #540 on: February 19, 2019, 12:17:25 AM »
OK, you can do that.  You can do whatever you want.  But you’re wrong.  I’m not a transphobic bigot.  I’m just uninterested (or perhaps disinterested). I voted yes in the Same Sex Marriage plebiscite for much the same reason.  People can do whatever they want, provided it doesn’t cause real harm to others.

WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS CAUSING REAL HARM TO OTHERS.

No, it isn’t.  Or it is, but only hypothetically.  I only see around a handful of people during the day, and I only comment on websites such as this.  And i don’t use social media.  I admit I might be causing you harm, with your shouting, and getting your knickers in a twist, but you really need to chill out, else you’ll pop an aneurysm.
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Offline fuzzyMarmot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #541 on: February 19, 2019, 12:36:48 AM »
OK, you can do that.  You can do whatever you want.  But you’re wrong.  I’m not a transphobic bigot.  I’m just uninterested (or perhaps disinterested). I voted yes in the Same Sex Marriage plebiscite for much the same reason.  People can do whatever they want, provided it doesn’t cause real harm to others.

WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS CAUSING REAL HARM TO OTHERS.

No, it isn’t.  Or it is, but only hypothetically.  I only see around a handful of people during the day, and I only comment on websites such as this.  And i don’t use social media.  I admit I might be causing you harm, with your shouting, and getting your knickers in a twist, but you really need to chill out, else you’ll pop an aneurysm.
You just don't get it, bachfiend. Your isolation does not make your ignorance ok (out of charity, I'll assume it's ignorance and not transphobia). You have a lot of people who are trying to explain to you that your attitudes are retrograde and harmful. Please listen. It's really difficult to recognize one's own prejudices. That's why it is essential to take it to heart when external people point these out.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #542 on: February 19, 2019, 06:37:10 AM »
OK, you can do that.  You can do whatever you want.  But you’re wrong.  I’m not a transphobic bigot.  I’m just uninterested (or perhaps disinterested). I voted yes in the Same Sex Marriage plebiscite for much the same reason.  People can do whatever they want, provided it doesn’t cause real harm to others.

WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS CAUSING REAL HARM TO OTHERS.

No, it isn’t.  Or it is, but only hypothetically.  I only see around a handful of people during the day, and I only comment on websites such as this.  And i don’t use social media.  I admit I might be causing you harm, with your shouting, and getting your knickers in a twist, but you really need to chill out, else you’ll pop an aneurysm.
You just don't get it, bachfiend. Your isolation does not make your ignorance ok (out of charity, I'll assume it's ignorance and not transphobia). You have a lot of people who are trying to explain to you that your attitudes are retrograde and harmful. Please listen. It's really difficult to recognize one's own prejudices. That's why it is essential to take it to heart when external people point these out.

Yes, but I am still going to use ‘they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun just in case the person referred happens to be a transgender or non-binary gender person (most aren’t).  If there’s considered a need for a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be devised.  The fact that one hasn’t been devised is an indication that one isn’t really necessary.

The belief that ‘they’ refers to two or more, not one and only one, is no more retrograde than the belief that one plus one doesn’t equal three.  I agree than transgender and non-binary gender persons have problems such bullying, mobbing and ridiculing.  The ‘wrong’ pronoun in comparison is very very minor and trivial.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #543 on: February 19, 2019, 10:40:43 AM »
@bachfiend:

Most people display an apparent gender, and many of those are indeed the gender they appear. But unless a person has told you their gender, or made it public, you do not know if their apparent gender is their actual gender. Even a person with a beard, or a penis, or breasts (the latter two items might be visible on a nude beach) might be a transgender person who has not yet begun a transition process, or who for some reason is unable to transition. Or might identify as ungendered.

There are people out there who are transgender but have not yet transitioned, and so are not the gender they "obviously" appear to be. And you cannot know who they are unless they have told you or made it public.

Is this hate speech? Have we met the threshold yet?

I don't think this is hate speech because I am confident that it's not motivated by hate. I think that bachfiend is simply too stubbornly clinging to an arbitrary and archaic grammatical convention to recognize the real pain this causes to a segment of society, a segment that has been so marginalized that he still does not see them. FWIW, I was pretty much oblivious of trans people until fairly recently.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #544 on: February 19, 2019, 02:51:45 PM »
I’m not going to be blackmailed into using the very unsatisfactory 3rd person singular ‘they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun for all single specified persons, whether of readily identified gender or not, just because transgender and non-binary gender people have it tough, with cyber bullying, physical mobbing and ridiculing.

If a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun is considered desirable, then one should be devised.  The fact that no agreement can be reached on one, indicates to me that the current situation, with the ‘wrong’ pronoun (either ‘he’ or ‘she’) being used can’t be that bad.  If the use of the ‘wrong’ pronoun is so bad, then compromise on another alternative should have been reached.  It wasn’t, but that doesn’t justify the ‘theft’ of ‘they’ and the perversion of its meaning.

Most people have readily identifiable gender.  The appropriate pronoun is either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  If I’m uncertain as to the person’s gender, I’m more circumspect, just repeating the person’s name or descriptor.  But I don’t use a default pronoun, such as ‘he’ or ‘they.’  Sometimes I use ‘(s)he’ or ‘he or she,’ but apparently that’s wrong, so I should stop doing that.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #545 on: February 19, 2019, 05:00:12 PM »
This morning’s Melbourne ‘Age’ has a timely article:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/cheating-navratilova-ignites-transgender-debate-as-tokyo-looms-20190219-p50ywk.html

Gay athlete and tennis player Martina Navratilova, with a transgender friend, is complaining about the advantages transgender athletes are gaining, by transitioning from male to female.  And she happily uses ‘he’ and ‘she’ to describe the transgender athletes, with not a ‘they’ in sight.

The non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun ‘they’ is a non-issue, promulgated by activist progressives. 

I’m a liberal, not a progressive.  A liberal believes a person has the right to choose to do the ‘right’ ting.  A progressive believes a person should be forced to do the ‘right’ thing.  A libertarian believes a person has the right to choose to do the ‘wrong’ thing.  A conservative believes a person should be forced to do the ‘wrong’ thing.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #546 on: February 19, 2019, 05:05:22 PM »
I’m not going to be blackmailed ...

Nobody is blackmailing you. Maybe we are browbeating you. But that's entirely different. ;D
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #547 on: February 19, 2019, 05:25:19 PM »
I’m not going to be blackmailed ...

Nobody is blackmailing you. Maybe we are browbeating you. But that's entirely different. ;D

I am being blackmailed.  I’m being made to feel guilty about referring to transgender and non-binary gender persons with the ‘wrong’ 3rd person singular pronoun.

Well, I don’t feel guilty.  Not even hypothetically.
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Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #548 on: February 19, 2019, 06:24:06 PM »
I’m not going to be blackmailed ...

Nobody is blackmailing you. Maybe we are browbeating you. But that's entirely different. ;D

I am being blackmailed.  I’m being made to feel guilty about referring to transgender and non-binary gender persons with the ‘wrong’ 3rd person singular pronoun.

Well, I don’t feel guilty.  Not even hypothetically.

From https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/blackmail -

Definition of blackmail in English:

blackmail
noun
mass noun

    1The action, treated as a criminal offence, of demanding money from someone in return for not revealing compromising information which one has about them.
    ‘they were acquitted of charges of blackmail’
    as modifier ‘she recounted the blackmail threats’

    1.1 Money demanded by a person or group engaged in blackmail.
    ‘we do not pay blackmail’

1.2 The use of threats or the manipulation of someone's feelings to force them to do something.
‘some people use emotional blackmail’

verb
[with object]

    1Demand money from (someone) in return for not revealing compromising information about them.
    ‘they use this fact to blackmail him, trying to force him to vote for their candidate’

    1.1 Force (someone) to do something by using threats or manipulating their feelings.
    ‘he had blackmailed her into sailing with him’


Even looking at 1.2, no one has threatened you or forced you to do anything here, and certainly no one is trying to extort you. Misusing such a well-established word like "blackmail" suggests that words don't really matter to you after all.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #549 on: February 19, 2019, 07:33:37 PM »
I’m not going to be blackmailed ...

Nobody is blackmailing you. Maybe we are browbeating you. But that's entirely different. ;D

I am being blackmailed.  I’m being made to feel guilty about referring to transgender and non-binary gender persons with the ‘wrong’ 3rd person singular pronoun.

Well, I don’t feel guilty.  Not even hypothetically.

From https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/blackmail -

Definition of blackmail in English:

blackmail
noun
mass noun

    1The action, treated as a criminal offence, of demanding money from someone in return for not revealing compromising information which one has about them.
    ‘they were acquitted of charges of blackmail’
    as modifier ‘she recounted the blackmail threats’

    1.1 Money demanded by a person or group engaged in blackmail.
    ‘we do not pay blackmail’

1.2 The use of threats or the manipulation of someone's feelings to force them to do something.
‘some people use emotional blackmail’

verb
[with object]

    1Demand money from (someone) in return for not revealing compromising information about them.
    ‘they use this fact to blackmail him, trying to force him to vote for their candidate’

    1.1 Force (someone) to do something by using threats or manipulating their feelings.
    ‘he had blackmailed her into sailing with him’


Even looking at 1.2, no one has threatened you or forced you to do anything here, and certainly no one is trying to extort you. Misusing such a well-established word like "blackmail" suggests that words don't really matter to you after all.

They are attempting to blackmail me.  They’re trying to make me feel guilty for refusing to use the ‘singular they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun, in case I upset a transgender or non-binary gender person.  Which is what blackmailers do - they know something about a person, which the person feels ashamed and guilty about, and attempt to force the person to do something, either pay money or perform some action.  Blackmailers attempt to shame their victims into doing something.  Spies can blackmail people to become traitors by threatening to shame them.

I could have used ‘shame’ instead of ‘blackmail,’ but they’re the same thing.

I’m concerned with the meaning of words.  I sort of get the idea of ‘transgender.’  The person doesn’t identify with the gender recorded on the birth certificate, and wants to be regarded as the other gender.  But what exactly is ‘non-binary gender?’  I’ve looked at a number of websites, and there’s no consistent definitions.  Actually no definitions at all.  It just seems to be a non-condition created by progressive activists in order to produce victimhood and guilt.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #550 on: February 19, 2019, 07:41:30 PM »
Beef Wellington beat me to it: blackmail is demanding money from someone on the threat of revealing damaging information about them if they don't pay. Nobody here is doing that. (Unless maybe someone I don't know about has sent you a P.M. demanding money if you don't change your language.)

As I said we are merely trying to browbeat you into compliance with 2019 gramatical conventions. Trying to make you feel guilty is browbeating, not blackmail. But I'm not trying to make you feel guilty. I'm trying to get you to empathize with a group of people who are in real pain, and accept changing grammatical conventions.

Languages evolve, and we are living this evolution. Resistance is futile. The language will evolve in spite of you. Join the collective and submit to the inevitable.  8)
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Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #551 on: February 19, 2019, 08:00:59 PM »
I could have used ‘shame’ instead of ‘blackmail,’ but they’re the same thing.

No. No, they're not.

I’m concerned with the meaning of words.  I sort of get the idea of ‘transgender.’  The person doesn’t identify with the gender recorded on the birth certificate, and wants to be regarded as the other gender.  But what exactly is ‘non-binary gender?’  I’ve looked at a number of websites, and there’s no consistent definitions.  Actually no definitions at all.

You know how not guilty doesn't necessarily mean innocent? Well, non-binary works the same way. It just means they are not binary (stuck as either male or female).

It just seems to be a non-condition created by progressive activists in order to produce victimhood and guilt.

Holy shit. Just wow. I was really hoping you simply didn't understand basic concepts. It's one thing to not look at someone's info if your mind has already been made up, but assuming so much with so little knowledge is a goddamned travesty. That attitude is responsible for a lot of the world's problems, not the origin but the failure to fix anything. Too many people know, they just know those scientists are paid off and those pesky liberals are trying to control society, so climate change has gotta be fake. I got the flu shot once and I still got the flu, so all vaccines must be a scam. Belgarath was on to something- "Jordan B. Peterson-lite." I'm genuinely not trying to take a personal dig with any of this, but jesus christ sometimes experts know what they're talking about. It's up to you to listen to them.
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #552 on: February 19, 2019, 08:19:22 PM »
Spies blackmail their victims into doing something (betray their country), not to pay money.  People here are trying to blackmail me into betraying my beliefs as to to the meaning of words, not paying money.

I’m still having problems understanding what non-binary gender is.  What is it?  It just seems to be an invented non-condition, with victimhood and shaming added in.  If it’s a real condition, it wouldn’t be a ‘whatever.’
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Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #553 on: February 19, 2019, 08:29:01 PM »
Spies blackmail their victims into doing something (betray their country), not to pay money.  People here are trying to blackmail me into betraying my beliefs as to to the meaning of words, not paying money.

I’m still having problems understanding what non-binary gender is.  What is it?  It just seems to be an invented non-condition, with victimhood and shaming added in.  If it’s a real condition, it wouldn’t be a ‘whatever.’

Trying is not forcing, so no blackmail. And you're missing the entire point of the "non." It doesn't matter what something is, it's what it isn't (either male or female in this case). It's like when atheists are accused of claiming there is no god, when in reality they're simply not convinced a god exists. It's the same thing. People whose gender is considered non-binary don't have to be something to qualify as non-binary, they need to not be something.
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #554 on: February 19, 2019, 08:40:17 PM »
Spies blackmail their victims into doing something (betray their country), not to pay money.  People here are trying to blackmail me into betraying my beliefs as to to the meaning of words, not paying money.

I’m still having problems understanding what non-binary gender is.  What is it?  It just seems to be an invented non-condition, with victimhood and shaming added in.  If it’s a real condition, it wouldn’t be a ‘whatever.’

Trying is not forcing, so no blackmail. And you're missing the entire point of the "non." It doesn't matter what something is, it's what it isn't (either male or female in this case). It's like when atheists are accused of claiming there is no god, when in reality they're simply not convinced a god exists. It's the same thing. People whose gender is considered non-binary don't have to be something to qualify as non-binary, they need to not be something.

Well, what is non-binary gender?  Something without a definition isn’t something, it’s a nothing.

I’m an atheist, because I claim that a god or gods don’t exist.  I’m convinced that God doesn’t exist, not that there’s no adequate evidence that They exist.  I wonder if I’m non-binary gender, because of its ‘whatever.’  I never married, never had the desire to marry, never had the desire to have children (I reasoned that my 6 siblings could do the necessary breeding for the family).  I’ve never been interested in sex, have been celibate my entire life, but I identify as male and heterosexual, but I also regard gender as irrelevant.

So what am I?  A transphobic bigot?
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