Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 16430 times)

CarbShark and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #615 on: February 25, 2019, 10:13:32 PM »
bachfiend, I think the start of this whole conversation was you mocking someone for using "they" as a default singular pronoun. I don't think anyone is trying to force you into this default usage. We've just pointed out that most influential style guides permit its use and that it is widely adopted, both colloquially and in publications. Like it or not, you are going to have to live with its use.

The most important thing to realize is that, if a person's preferred pronoun is "they", then you need to respect their wishes. If you don't.... well, then you need to do some serious soul-searching. Not using a preferred pronoun (including avoiding using any type of pronoun for that person) is transphobic behavior.

Benjamin Dreyer (longtime copy chief at Random House and author of the new bestselling style guide *Dreyer's English*) commented in an interview on NPR:

"The last thing that I want to do is to pass myself off as some sort of ferocious gatekeeper who — in some sort of argument about the purity and the wonder of the English language, and how it must be preserved — is simply being unkind and cruel to other human beings."

You note that this argument started with my ‘mocking’ someone (actually arthwollipot) for referring to someone else (actually CarbShark) with the ‘singular they,’ despite CarbShark being definitely male (I’m just a guy who’s done a ton of research...’).

All the way through this storm in a teacup debate, I’ve tried to address and advance arguments, and to not mock or ridicule others who are advancing arguments opposed to mine.  I ridicule the arguments, not the proponents.

Unlike arthwollipot, who specializes in personal abuse, as shown by his last (and often repeated) ‘non-comment.’
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline brilligtove

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 6799
  • Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity, you deal with.
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #616 on: February 25, 2019, 10:44:15 PM »
Arth, you're getting a LOT of mileage out of that GIF.

Good for you!
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

Online arthwollipot

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8296
  • Observer of Phenomena
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #617 on: February 25, 2019, 11:34:23 PM »
Arth, you're getting a LOT of mileage out of that GIF.

Good for you!

It's a good gif. And appropriate.
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #618 on: February 25, 2019, 11:48:33 PM »
Arth, you're getting a LOT of mileage out of that GIF.

Good for you!

It's a good gif. And appropriate.

As appropriate as your one with the cracked record.  You’re the one repeating the same non-argument.  The record one applies to you.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline Beef Wellington

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 148
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #619 on: March 15, 2019, 09:49:43 PM »
As much as I've enjoyed the break here, this caught my eye today. I think it illustrates what Bachfiend has failed to grasp.

"Fuck, that is me" can't be quantified, but it's a reality for many people.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/krystieyandoli/sam-smith-gender-non-binary
"Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose" - Dale Gribble

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #620 on: March 17, 2019, 12:33:44 AM »
As much as I've enjoyed the break here, this caught my eye today. I think it illustrates what Bachfiend has failed to grasp.

"Fuck, that is me" can't be quantified, but it's a reality for many people.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/krystieyandoli/sam-smith-gender-non-binary

What made you decide to resurrect a dead thread?

Sam Smith is male.  He has enough testosterone to grow a beard.  He claims to be non-binary gender, but he prefers the 3rd person singular pronoun of ‘he.’

There’s nothing about ‘reality’ regarding his preference to be of non-binary gender.  Biologically, he’s male.

And all I’ve been saying all along is that if it’s considered desirable to have a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be devised, not stealing ‘they.’  And ‘they’ should not be automatically used as the default 3rd person singular pronoun.

This reminds me of ‘the Life of Brian.’  It’s a case of political correctness flying in the face of reality:


Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline Rai

  • PIZZASAURUS
  • Global Moderator
  • Too Much Spare Time
  • *****
  • Posts: 6603
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #621 on: March 17, 2019, 02:25:27 AM »
Moderator Comment Just a reminder that you should not misgender people, it is against the rules.

This is just basic human decency and the respect of both the individual and contemporary science, ideas that we value at this forum.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #622 on: March 17, 2019, 05:56:50 AM »
Moderator Comment Just a reminder that you should not misgender people, it is against the rules.

This is just basic human decency and the respect of both the individual and contemporary science, ideas that we value at this forum.

I’m not misgendering anyone.  He’s male.  He’s growing a beard.  He prefers ‘he’ as the 3rd person singular pronoun.  He’s not of non-binary gender.  He just rejects the stereotype or caricature of ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness.’
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11742
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #623 on: March 17, 2019, 04:13:53 PM »
Bachfiend,

You obviously did not read the article, or if you did, you picked out the ONE sentence that supports your case.

Quote
“Nonbinary/genderqueer is that you do not identify in a gender. You are a mixture of all different things. You are your own special creation,” he said.

“That’s how I take it: I am not male or female. I think I float somewhere in between. It’s all on the spectrum.”

Certainly he says he prefers the male pronoun, but to insist that he is male goes against what Sam Smith says in the article.

I think this was explained to you before.  It's as if you intentionally are ignoring what the science says on this topic.

 
#non-belief denialist

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #624 on: March 17, 2019, 06:01:28 PM »
Bachfiend,

You obviously did not read the article, or if you did, you picked out the ONE sentence that supports your case.

Quote
“Nonbinary/genderqueer is that you do not identify in a gender. You are a mixture of all different things. You are your own special creation,” he said.

“That’s how I take it: I am not male or female. I think I float somewhere in between. It’s all on the spectrum.”

Certainly he says he prefers the male pronoun, but to insist that he is male goes against what Sam Smith says in the article.

I think this was explained to you before.  It's as if you intentionally are ignoring what the science says on this topic.

The science says that almost all people, the overwhelming majority, are biologically either male or female.  There’s a vanishing small number of people who can’t be put into the categories of either ‘male’ or ‘female.’  There’s a larger number of people who regard themselves of being of non-binary gender for social reasons, perhaps because it’s a fad?  Biologically, Sam Smith is male.  He’s got enough testosterone to be growing a beard.  I didn’t pick out one sentence.  There’s also an image published of him too.  I realise that one shouldn’t go on first impressions, but that’s something humans do.  Recognising ‘male’ or ‘female’ at first glance is something that’s hardwired into humans evolutionarily.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline TheLuckyWanderer

  • Brand New
  • Posts: 7
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #625 on: March 17, 2019, 09:09:52 PM »
Bachfiend,

You obviously did not read the article, or if you did, you picked out the ONE sentence that supports your case.

Quote
“Nonbinary/genderqueer is that you do not identify in a gender. You are a mixture of all different things. You are your own special creation,” he said.

“That’s how I take it: I am not male or female. I think I float somewhere in between. It’s all on the spectrum.”

Certainly he says he prefers the male pronoun, but to insist that he is male goes against what Sam Smith says in the article.

I think this was explained to you before.  It's as if you intentionally are ignoring what the science says on this topic.

The science says that almost all people, the overwhelming majority, are biologically either male or female.  There’s a vanishing small number of people who can’t be put into the categories of either ‘male’ or ‘female.’  There’s a larger number of people who regard themselves of being of non-binary gender for social reasons, perhaps because it’s a fad?  Biologically, Sam Smith is male.  He’s got enough testosterone to be growing a beard.  I didn’t pick out one sentence.  There’s also an image published of him too.  I realise that one shouldn’t go on first impressions, but that’s something humans do.  Recognising ‘male’ or ‘female’ at first glance is something that’s hardwired into humans evolutionarily.

Your argument is conflating a lot of disparate things.  Biology =/= gender, Biology =/= sexual organs, Biology =/= gender expression, gender =/= gender expression, gender =/= sexual organs.

You can be both biologically male, have male sexual organs, be non-binary in your gender, be solely attracted to females, and still grow a beard.

Further, you can be like me, who is biologically male, has male sexual organs, identifies as a gendered male, is mostly heterosexual, and I cannot grow a beard.  Does the lack of testosterone preventing my ability to grow a beard preclude me from being male per your definition?

Is Sam Smith "more male" than me, despite identifying as non-binary, because he can grow a beard?

Also, what of those biologically presenting males (that is, born with a penis, testes and testicles) that are born with XX chromosomes?  Are they males or females, or has their internal sense of gender have nothing to do with their biology?

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #626 on: March 17, 2019, 09:53:29 PM »
Bachfiend,

You obviously did not read the article, or if you did, you picked out the ONE sentence that supports your case.

Quote
“Nonbinary/genderqueer is that you do not identify in a gender. You are a mixture of all different things. You are your own special creation,” he said.

“That’s how I take it: I am not male or female. I think I float somewhere in between. It’s all on the spectrum.”

Certainly he says he prefers the male pronoun, but to insist that he is male goes against what Sam Smith says in the article.

I think this was explained to you before.  It's as if you intentionally are ignoring what the science says on this topic.

The science says that almost all people, the overwhelming majority, are biologically either male or female.  There’s a vanishing small number of people who can’t be put into the categories of either ‘male’ or ‘female.’  There’s a larger number of people who regard themselves of being of non-binary gender for social reasons, perhaps because it’s a fad?  Biologically, Sam Smith is male.  He’s got enough testosterone to be growing a beard.  I didn’t pick out one sentence.  There’s also an image published of him too.  I realise that one shouldn’t go on first impressions, but that’s something humans do.  Recognising ‘male’ or ‘female’ at first glance is something that’s hardwired into humans evolutionarily.

Your argument is conflating a lot of disparate things.  Biology =/= gender, Biology =/= sexual organs, Biology =/= gender expression, gender =/= gender expression, gender =/= sexual organs.

You can be both biologically male, have male sexual organs, be non-binary in your gender, be solely attracted to females, and still grow a beard.

Further, you can be like me, who is biologically male, has male sexual organs, identifies as a gendered male, is mostly heterosexual, and I cannot grow a beard.  Does the lack of testosterone preventing my ability to grow a beard preclude me from being male per your definition?

Is Sam Smith "more male" than me, despite identifying as non-binary, because he can grow a beard?

Also, what of those biologically presenting males (that is, born with a penis, testes and testicles) that are born with XX chromosomes?  Are they males or females, or has their internal sense of gender have nothing to do with their biology?

I’m trying to work out how a person born with XX chromosomes can have testes.  To develop testes (and ‘testes’ and ‘testicles’ are the same thing by the way), a person needs a Y chromosome.  Perhaps Klinefelter’s syndrome, with XXY, in which case the external genitals are underdeveloped and may be ambiguous?  Or a mosaic (there have been cases where fusion of non-identical twins have occurred in utero, and the ovaries of a person  - and the subsequent children - have a completely different genotype to that of the mother), with the fused (male) twin providing the cells destined to become the gonad in a female twin?

You’re male.  Not everyone can grow beards, and it’s got nothing to do with the amount of testosterone.  It’s genetic.  One of those trivial genetic differences that distinguish people from each other.

And you can’t be ‘both (sic) biologically male, have male sexual organs, be non-binary in your gender, be solely attracted to females, and still grow a beard.’  Not without having a split personality disorder.  But you can (like me) regard gender and gender preference as being completely irrelevant.  The best man for a job is often a woman (or a transgender person or person of non-binary gender).

Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Online arthwollipot

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8296
  • Observer of Phenomena
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #627 on: March 17, 2019, 10:13:02 PM »
I think this was explained to you before.  It's as if you intentionally are ignoring what the science says on this topic.

After this long, it's just stubbornness.
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him.

Offline st3class

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #628 on: March 17, 2019, 10:26:14 PM »
It's always more complicated than that.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Episode #700
« Reply #629 on: March 17, 2019, 11:46:09 PM »
I think this was explained to you before.  It's as if you intentionally are ignoring what the science says on this topic.

After this long, it's just stubbornness.

It’s not ‘science.’  It’s just social engineering.  I’m ‘stubborn’ about not using ‘they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun.  If it’s considered desirable to have a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun (which I think is warranted) then one should be devised.  Using ‘they’ to refer to single persons is just ambiguous.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

 

personate-rain