Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 25702 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2018, 02:05:31 AM »
The next sentence reads ‘Therefore be at peace with God.’  There’s no God, so the poem’s nonsense.

Load of rubbish. By that argument everything written by Bach is nonsense. The quoted portion of the passage expresses a sentiment that is valid regardless of what follows.

Well, the entire poem is rubbish.  It’s expressing a touchy-feely spiritual viewpoint of the universe, which is just indifferent to the Sun, the Earth, let alone us.    We can go extinct,and no one else in the universe would miss us.

Which is probably why CarbShark chose to quote just a small portion of it - the bit that they thought relevant.

Since when is CarbShark plural so as to need the ‘-the bit that they thought relevant?’  Perhaps he’s like the Gerasene  demons?

Dude, you just got owned by arthwollipot, and now you're lashing out.

Nope, I’m laughing at him for not using the correct personal pronoun.  I regard such grammatical errors to be a sign of low intelligence.

I was using the singular they as I do not, in fact, know CarbShark's preferred pronoun. I am trying to develop the habit of using gender-neutral pronouns by default.

You could have written ‘he or she,’ or ‘(s)he,’ or just simply ‘he.’  Being fluent in German with its three genders - masculine, feminine and neuter, which have nothing to do with sex (das Mädchen - the girl - is neuter and takes ‘es’ - it - as a personal pronoun, and ‘sein’ - his or its - as the possessive pronoun, I’m perfectly comfortable with ‘he’ as the standard fallback.

You’re certaining trying in using a plural pronoun to replace a singular subject.

"They" is a valid singular pronoun and has been since the 14th Century. You've probably used it yourself.

"There's someone at the door!"
"What do they want?"

And no, I am absolutely against using the masculine pronoun as a default, and you should be too.

Perhaps I might have, in conversation, but I’d never use ‘they’ with ‘someone’ when I’m writing and can ‘preview’ before pressing ‘submit.’  And anyway - the first question in your dialogue wouldn’t be ‘what do they want?’ but ‘who is it?’, and then you can use the appropriate pronoun.

I’m not against using the masculine pronoun as a default (there’s a tendency to use the feminine pronoun as compensation).  Trying to use illiterate formulations when you’re writing is political correctness gone mad.

And anyway, it doesn’t take much intelligence to realise that CarbShark is male, and that you can use ‘he’ instead of ‘they’ as the personal pronoun.  He signs his comment with ‘I’m just a guy who has done...’
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 04:19:23 AM by bachfiend »
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2018, 09:48:20 AM »
I’m ambivalent on the pronoun issue. I definitely feel that individuals who have expressed a preference for a particular pronoun should be given the respect of using their preferred pronoun. But in general usage, grammatical gender is not the same kind of thing as biological gender. In many languages, including Spanish (the only language I speak other than my native English) all nouns have grammatical gender even though the objects they reference are not biological. And some nouns referring to animals have a specific gender even when the individual has the opposite biological gender. “Tortuga” (turtle) is a feminine word, even when referring to a male turtle, which is “la tortuga macha.” “Macha” being he feminine grammatical form of the adjective “male.”

In English, up until a few decades ago, the masculine pronoun was the default correct pronoun to use for an individual whose gender was unknown or unspecified. Some people objected that this was offensive to women, to refer to a person who might turn out to be female with a male pronoun, but the opposite case could be made, that the use of the male pronoun for any unknown person left the gender of any man to whom it was applied ambiguous.

But the fact is that although English has lost most of the grammatical distinctions of its root languages, grammatical gender has nothing to do with biological gender. And I’d much prefer not to use a plural pronoun to refer to a single individual. Sadly, the only neutral single pronoun in English is “it,” which is not properly applied to humans (except that now, some people in the queer community prefer it, so as to avoid any gender reference without having to resort to the use of a plural pronoun).

So I often use “they” to avoid offense, but I honestly think that the people complaining about gender in grammar are misunderstanding grammar itself.
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Offline stands2reason

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2018, 11:31:25 AM »
Linguistic/grammatical gender is a load of WTF. And it doea affect the psychology of the user.

https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2009/04/06/102518565/shakespeare-had-roses-all-wrong

Quote
Boroditsky proposes that because the word for "bridge" in German — die brucke — is a feminine noun, and the word for "bridge" in Spanish — el puente — is a masculine noun, native speakers unconsciously give nouns the characteristics of their grammatical gender.

"Does treating chairs as masculine and beds as feminine in the grammar make Russian speakers think of chairs as being more like men and beds as more like women in some way?" she asks in a recent essay. "It turns out that it does. In one study, we asked German and Spanish speakers to describe objects having opposite gender assignment in those two languages. The descriptions they gave differed in a way predicted by grammatical gender."

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2018, 11:49:27 AM »
Linguistic/grammatical gender is a load of WTF. And it doea affect the psychology of the user.

https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2009/04/06/102518565/shakespeare-had-roses-all-wrong

Quote
Boroditsky proposes that because the word for "bridge" in German — die brucke — is a feminine noun, and the word for "bridge" in Spanish — el puente — is a masculine noun, native speakers unconsciously give nouns the characteristics of their grammatical gender.

"Does treating chairs as masculine and beds as feminine in the grammar make Russian speakers think of chairs as being more like men and beds as more like women in some way?" she asks in a recent essay. "It turns out that it does. In one study, we asked German and Spanish speakers to describe objects having opposite gender assignment in those two languages. The descriptions they gave differed in a way predicted by grammatical gender."

Personally, I think that psychology study is a load of bullshit.  I think the different adjectives used by German speakers compared to Spanish speakers has more to do with the speakers rather than the gender of nouns.  In German, ‘table’ can be masculine ‘der Tisch’ or feminine ‘die Tafel.’  Do the characteristics of a table change depending on whether it’s masculine or feminine?  And ‘the girl’ in German is neuter ‘das  Mädchen’ along with ‘es’ (it) and ‘sein’ (its or his).  German speakers don’t think girls are sexless.
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Offline fuzzyMarmot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2018, 04:23:47 PM »
Use of "they" as a singular pronoun is grammatically acceptable, according to the AP Style Guide and the Chicago Manual of Style.

https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/03/31/english-has-a-traditional-solution-to-gender-neutral-pronouns

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2018, 06:29:30 PM »
Use of "they" as a singular pronoun is grammatically acceptable, according to the AP Style Guide and the Chicago Manual of Style.

https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/03/31/english-has-a-traditional-solution-to-gender-neutral-pronouns

No, it’s not acceptable to many grammarians, and it’s certainly not acceptable to me.  It’s as bad as putting unnecessary apostrophes into its, CDs.  Using ‘they’ or ‘their’ after a singular subject is inviting confusion, since the reader will be tempted to look for a different subject.

And it wasn’t necessary to use ‘they’ with CarbShark.  CarbShark is clearly male.
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Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2018, 06:35:07 PM »
Use of "they" as a singular pronoun is grammatically acceptable, according to the AP Style Guide and the Chicago Manual of Style.

https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/03/31/english-has-a-traditional-solution-to-gender-neutral-pronouns

No, it’s not acceptable to many grammarians, and it’s certainly not acceptable to me. 

It used to bug me until I found out that "you" was originally plural only... then I realized I was just being stubborn.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2018, 07:21:09 PM »
Use of "they" as a singular pronoun is grammatically acceptable, according to the AP Style Guide and the Chicago Manual of Style.

https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/03/31/english-has-a-traditional-solution-to-gender-neutral-pronouns

No, it’s not acceptable to many grammarians, and it’s certainly not acceptable to me.  It’s as bad as putting unnecessary apostrophes into its, CDs.  Using ‘they’ or ‘their’ after a singular subject is inviting confusion, since the reader will be tempted to look for a different subject.

And it wasn’t necessary to use ‘they’ with CarbShark.  CarbShark is clearly male.

Y'all need to chill
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2018, 09:14:58 PM »
Use of "they" as a singular pronoun is grammatically acceptable, according to the AP Style Guide and the Chicago Manual of Style.

https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/03/31/english-has-a-traditional-solution-to-gender-neutral-pronouns

The AP style guide is not an authority on grammar. It is a guide for reporters hoping to have their pieces picked up by the AP. The whole kerfuffle over the use of “he” and “him” as a standard when the biological gender of the subject is unknown, has made the AP afraid to stand by standard English grammar, pandering instead to a minority that takes offense at any use of the masculine gender, and goes so far as to try to ban any word with “man” in it even when the etymology does not come from “man” as masculine human person, but has an entirely different origin.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2018, 10:25:33 PM »
The AP style guide is an authority on grammar.

There is no doubt.

It is not the supreme authority with the final say on what’s acceptable and what’s not, but for the English language there ain’t no such thing.

But AP style guide is a close as it comes.   


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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2018, 10:54:40 PM »
The AP style guide is an authority on grammar.

There is no doubt.

It is not the supreme authority with the final say on what’s acceptable and what’s not, but for the English language there ain’t no such thing.

But AP style guide is a close as it comes.   


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On a different thread, we had an argument regarding whether ‘imply’ can mean ‘suggest’ or not, despite ‘imply’ being a synonym of ‘suggest.’ 

‘They’ and ‘their’ definitely do not mean ‘he or she’ and ‘his or her.’

It might be acceptable to use the plural personal pronoun and plural possessive adjective in colloquial speech, but in written language, it’s not acceptable, particularly when it’s possible to rephrase a sentence to avoid political incorrectness, if that’s desired.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #86 on: December 22, 2018, 12:27:16 AM »
The AP style guide is an authority on grammar.

There is no doubt.

It is not the supreme authority with the final say on what’s acceptable and what’s not, but for the English language there ain’t no such thing.

But AP style guide is a close as it comes.   


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On a different thread, we had an argument regarding whether ‘imply’ can mean ‘suggest’ or not, despite ‘imply’ being a synonym of ‘suggest.’ 

‘They’ and ‘their’ definitely do not mean ‘he or she’ and ‘his or her.’

It might be acceptable to use the plural personal pronoun and plural possessive adjective in colloquial speech, but in written language, it’s not acceptable, particularly when it’s possible to rephrase a sentence to avoid political incorrectness, if that’s desired.

You're creating a false dichotomy here. You are correct "they" and "their" do not mean "his" or "her" or "he" or "she"

"They" can be used when referring to a person but not specifying gender.

So no those words do not have the exact same meaning but they can have the exact same usage.

English rocks, don't it?

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #87 on: December 22, 2018, 12:58:55 AM »
The AP style guide is an authority on grammar.

There is no doubt.

It is not the supreme authority with the final say on what’s acceptable and what’s not, but for the English language there ain’t no such thing.

But AP style guide is a close as it comes.   


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On a different thread, we had an argument regarding whether ‘imply’ can mean ‘suggest’ or not, despite ‘imply’ being a synonym of ‘suggest.’ 

‘They’ and ‘their’ definitely do not mean ‘he or she’ and ‘his or her.’

It might be acceptable to use the plural personal pronoun and plural possessive adjective in colloquial speech, but in written language, it’s not acceptable, particularly when it’s possible to rephrase a sentence to avoid political incorrectness, if that’s desired.

You're creating a false dichotomy here. You are correct "they" and "their" do not mean "his" or "her" or "he" or "she"

"They" can be used when referring to a person but not specifying gender.

So no those words do not have the exact same meaning but they can have the exact same usage.

English rocks, don't it?

You can’t use ‘they’ or ‘their’ when you’re referring to a single specified person.  If you do, you’ll  have nonsensical sentences such as: ‘the hotel manager was asked to book a theatre ticket, so they picked up the telephone.’  If you’re referring to a specified person, whether it’s a hotel manager or CarbShark, you’ve got to either decide which gender the person has, or find some other way of formulating the sentence.

If you’re not referring to a single specified  person, then you can use the plural with ‘they’ or ‘their,’ or be politically incorrect, and use ‘he’ and ‘his.’

There’s nothing stopping you from changing ‘a hotel manager often books theatre tickets for his guests’ to ‘hotel managers often book theatre tickets for their guests.’  Changing it to ‘a hotel manager often books theatre tickets for their guests’  is wrong and clumsy.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #88 on: December 22, 2018, 02:38:19 AM »
The AP style guide is an authority on grammar.

There is no doubt.

It is not the supreme authority with the final say on what’s acceptable and what’s not, but for the English language there ain’t no such thing.

But AP style guide is a close as it comes.   


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On a different thread, we had an argument regarding whether ‘imply’ can mean ‘suggest’ or not, despite ‘imply’ being a synonym of ‘suggest.’ 

‘They’ and ‘their’ definitely do not mean ‘he or she’ and ‘his or her.’

It might be acceptable to use the plural personal pronoun and plural possessive adjective in colloquial speech, but in written language, it’s not acceptable, particularly when it’s possible to rephrase a sentence to avoid political incorrectness, if that’s desired.

You're creating a false dichotomy here. You are correct "they" and "their" do not mean "his" or "her" or "he" or "she"

"They" can be used when referring to a person but not specifying gender.

So no those words do not have the exact same meaning but they can have the exact same usage.

English rocks, don't it?

You can’t use ‘they’ or ‘their’ when you’re referring to a single specified person. 

Says who?

Quote

There’s nothing stopping you from changing ‘a hotel manager often books theatre tickets for his guests’ to ‘hotel managers often book theatre tickets for their guests.’  Changing it to ‘a hotel manager often books theatre tickets for their guests’  is wrong and clumsy.

Sexist! Hotel managers can be women, too



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Online Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2018, 07:11:16 AM »
Bachfiend, this might be the most petty tantrum I have seen in quite a while.
English has over 100 dialects with distinct grammar and vocabulary that are valid and interchangeable at a conversational level at the very least.
'They' as a singular pronoun has been in valid use for all of my life at least and I suspect long before my time. Usage changes language and linguistic evolution is completely valid. Only snobs and contrarians whine about it.

Furthermore, to make such a big deal about it in an online conversation and to be so rude as to attack the intelligence of the user is both tacky and immature.

Also- Why is the first letter of your username not capitalised?