Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 25685 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #180 on: December 28, 2018, 02:02:01 PM »
No one is telling you that you have to use specific pronouns.
You happen to be wrong that gender is always obvious (Take Rhea Butcher for example, a famous female presenting non binary individual) but even if it is obvious, using 'they' is an acceptable practice and nothing to do with political correctness 'gone mad'.
To impugn someone's intelligence on the basis of its usage is certainly absurd.

The German translator of ‘Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone’ fell for this problem.  German nouns all have gender, and there are definite male and female forms of person descriptors such as doctor, professor, student, etc.  JK Rowling introduced a minor character with a name that wasn’t obviously male or female.  The Talking Hat allocated this person to Slytherin who became a Slytherin, either ’eine Slytherin’ (female) or ‘ein Slytherin’ (male).  The translator guessed female, but JK Rowling mentioned the same minor character 5 volumes later, and it was obviously male, so the editors of the eBooks altered the original translation to make it ‘ein Slytherin.’

If you’re commenting on Rhea Butcher, then you should know her gender, particularly if she’s famous.  I’ve never heard of her, but if I’m going to comment on her, I’d at least make an effort to find out who she is (or more likely, not bother commenting).  It’s just laziness not to make the effort, but to still comment.  It was just laziness on your part not looking down at CarbShark’s signature.  Perhaps you should spend less less time deadlifting pacific walruses?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 03:55:17 PM by bachfiend »
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #181 on: December 28, 2018, 03:24:28 PM »
My new year’s resolution for 2019 is going to be to not deadlift any Pacific walruses.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #182 on: December 28, 2018, 05:33:03 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhea_Butcher

Quote
Rhea Butcher (born August 12, 1982) is an American stand-up comic, actor, writer, producer, and podcast host.[1] They (Butcher uses they/them pronouns)[2] are best known for personal, observational comedy focused on their vegetarianism, feminism, love of baseball, and experiences as a butch lesbian.[3]
Im not sure why you think I dont know who they are but I can assure you I do know their gender in as much as they have chosen to share it with the public.

Also weird that you now think I was unsure of Carbsharks gender or that I never read their signature?

But certainly, i will spend
Quote
less less
time deadlifting walruses.
What is it with you and trying to attack peoples intelligence? Its really quite pathetic.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #183 on: December 28, 2018, 06:02:20 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhea_Butcher

Quote
Rhea Butcher (born August 12, 1982) is an American stand-up comic, actor, writer, producer, and podcast host.[1] They (Butcher uses they/them pronouns)[2] are best known for personal, observational comedy focused on their vegetarianism, feminism, love of baseball, and experiences as a butch lesbian.[3]
Im not sure why you think I dont know who they are but I can assure you I do know their gender in as much as they have chosen to share it with the public.

Also weird that you now think I was unsure of Carbsharks gender or that I never read their signature?

But certainly, i will spend
Quote
less less
time deadlifting walruses.
What is it with you and trying to attack peoples intelligence? Its really quite pathetic.

No, I wasn’t implying that you didn’t know Rhea Butcher’s gender.  I was noting that if you’re going to be commenting regarding a person, you should ensure that you know the person’s gender before using ‘he’ or ‘she.’  And if you can’t determine the person’s gender, reformulate your sentence to avoid using a pronoun and not take the lazy way out of using ‘they,’ which means two or more.

You easily could have determined CarbShark’s gender.

I disagree that it’s permissible to corrupt a word to take a word to take a new meaning, while still retaining its old meaning.  There are many words which have acquired new meanings, while losing their original meanings.  ‘Terrific’ is one, which originally meant something like ‘terrible.’

I still haven’t seen any historical examples of ‘they’ being applied to single identified persons.  If there’s a perceived need for a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be devised, not stealing ‘they.’

Using ‘they’ for ‘he’ and ‘she’ makes about as much sense as calling ‘white’ and ‘black’ both ‘grey.’  It’s got about the same advantages - you won’t have to worry about whether something is black or white.  And it would avoid ‘injuring’ someone concerned with racial discrimination.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #184 on: December 28, 2018, 08:55:14 PM »
Using ‘they’ for ‘he’ and ‘she’ makes about as much sense as calling ‘white’ and ‘black’ both ‘grey.’

True. It makes no sense. I think we should have a different word. But natural languages are not based on sense. They just happen. People, collectively, are stupid. So we get things like “they” being used in a way that makes no sense. Languages are stuffed to the gills with expressions that in actual use mean the opposite of their literal meanings. They are also full of ambiguities that leave the listener/reader in doubt or completely confused over what was intended. We cannot command language. We can just try to understand what the other person is trying to communicate.

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Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #185 on: December 28, 2018, 09:24:21 PM »

I disagree that it’s permissible to corrupt a word to take a word to take a new meaning, while still retaining its old meaning.  There are many words which have acquired new meanings, while losing their original meanings.  ‘Terrific’ is one, which originally meant something like ‘terrible.’

I still haven’t seen any historical examples of ‘they’ being applied to single identified persons.  If there’s a perceived need for a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be devised, not stealing ‘they.’

The English word "you" was, not that long ago, plural only.  Now it's both singular and plural.  The analogy is almost perfect.

Amend and resubmit.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #186 on: December 29, 2018, 12:04:06 AM »

I disagree that it’s permissible to corrupt a word to take a word to take a new meaning, while still retaining its old meaning.  There are many words which have acquired new meanings, while losing their original meanings.  ‘Terrific’ is one, which originally meant something like ‘terrible.’

I still haven’t seen any historical examples of ‘they’ being applied to single identified persons.  If there’s a perceived need for a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be devised, not stealing ‘they.’

The English word "you" was, not that long ago, plural only.  Now it's both singular and plural.  The analogy is almost perfect.

In German, ‘you’ is either du or Sie (singular, familiar or formal), ihr or Sie (plural, familiar or formal).  If English had different forms of ‘you’ depending on whether the person being addressed was male or female, then there might be grounds for complaint concerning sexism.  But it’s irrelevant that 3rd personal singular pronouns are non-gendered.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #187 on: December 29, 2018, 11:11:31 AM »
The latest episode of the Babbage podcast from the Economist has a long discussion about their style guide, with specific mention of the singular they.

https://play.acast.com/s/theeconomistbabbage/babbage-bestof2018
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #188 on: December 29, 2018, 02:06:34 PM »
The latest episode of the Babbage podcast from the Economist has a long discussion about their style guide, with specific mention of the singular they.

https://play.acast.com/s/theeconomistbabbage/babbage-bestof2018

So what was the conclusion?  I don’t really have the time to listen to another podcast.  My main objection is to using the singular they with single specified persons of readily ascertainable gender such as John Smith and CarbShark.  I’m open to using the singular they after subjects of which there may be more than one such as ‘someone,’ ‘anyone,’ or ‘an American.’

I’m opposed to using the singular they just for political correctness.  Some people might complain about being identified with ‘he’ or ‘she,’ but many more would  with being identified as ‘they.’  If English had gendered 2nd person singular pronouns, then there might be a case for complaint, but English doesn’t.

This argument has gone on far too long.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #189 on: December 29, 2018, 02:13:28 PM »
The latest episode of the Babbage podcast from the Economist has a long discussion about their style guide, with specific mention of the singular they.

https://play.acast.com/s/theeconomistbabbage/babbage-bestof2018

So what was the conclusion? 

That you’re wrong about this.
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I don’t really have the time to listen to another podcast. 

Maybe you will now that ....

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This argument has gone on far too long.



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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #190 on: December 29, 2018, 02:42:58 PM »
Show me a historical example of someone complaining about being called "they"?
Or dont.
If you refuse to refer to people by their preferred pronouns and consider the request to be one of 'political correctness' then you really aren't worth speaking to or listening to on this issue and are, quite frankly, transphobic.
We need fewer of your ilk.

Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #191 on: December 29, 2018, 04:29:14 PM »
The linguist noted that this is a new use of they. Not a wrong use. A new one.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #192 on: December 29, 2018, 04:30:00 PM »
Oh, and the episode is 14 minutes.
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Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #193 on: December 29, 2018, 05:43:41 PM »
My main objection is to using the singular they with single specified persons of readily ascertainable gender such as John Smith and CarbShark.

Yes, you've noted this at least a dozen times.

The fact is, the new usage will become more popular and acceptable despite your objection.  I suggest getting used to it.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #194 on: December 29, 2018, 05:58:50 PM »
Show me a historical example of someone complaining about being called "they"?
Or dont.
If you refuse to refer to people by their preferred pronouns and consider the request to be one of 'political correctness' then you really aren't worth speaking to or listening to on this issue and are, quite frankly, transphobic.
We need fewer of your ilk.

I wouldn’t refuse to address a person by their preferred pronoun if English had gendered 2nd person singular pronouns (which it doesn’t), but I refuse to refer to single specified persons of easily identifiable gender with ‘they’ when they prefer to be identified as the other gender.  It would mean that I would have to know more about the person than I need to know (their sexual preferences should be and is of absolute no concern to me).  And I possibly would be offending people who don’t want to be referred to with ‘they,’ instead preferring ‘he’ or ‘she.’
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