Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 25617 times)

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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #300 on: January 07, 2019, 08:29:16 PM »
It’s ‘bachfiend,’ not ‘Bachfiend.’  You should ‘respect’ my preference.

My sincere apologies. I will ensure that I get your name correct in the future. To clarify, do you mind if I capitalise your name at the beginning of a sentence, or would you prefer to remain uncapitalised there as well?
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #301 on: January 07, 2019, 08:37:10 PM »
I don’t want ‘he’ and ‘she’ to go the same way, with ‘they’ replacing both.

First, no-one's suggesting that it should. No-one wants to force people to use a nonbinary pronoun if they don't want to. But some people do want to have the option. Second? Why not? Do "he" and "she" have some special value to you over that of other obsolete words such as "britches" or "icebox"?
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Online bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #302 on: January 07, 2019, 08:39:20 PM »
It’s ‘bachfiend,’ not ‘Bachfiend.’  You should ‘respect’ my preference.

My sincere apologies. I will ensure that I get your name correct in the future. To clarify, do you mind if I capitalise your name at the beginning of a sentence, or would you prefer to remain uncapitalised there as well?

Do whatever you want.  My comment was tongue in cheek.  It’s none of my business whether you capitalise ‘bachfiend’ or not, in the same way that it’s no business of anyone if someone else uses ‘he’ or ‘she’ to refer to them (and ‘them’ is appropriate because ‘anyone’ isn’t a single specified person) instead of ‘they.’  Provided the comment shows at least the minimum of respect appropriate.
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #303 on: January 07, 2019, 08:53:55 PM »
I don’t want ‘he’ and ‘she’ to go the same way, with ‘they’ replacing both.

First, no-one's suggesting that it should. No-one wants to force people to use a nonbinary pronoun if they don't want to. But some people do want to have the option. Second? Why not? Do "he" and "she" have some special value to you over that of other obsolete words such as "britches" or "icebox"?

Well, you already have the option of using ‘they’ instead of ‘he’ or ‘she,’ in the same way that you have the option of using ‘grey’ instead of ‘white’ or ‘black.’

You’ll just be wrong.

People had the option of pronouncing ‘kilometre’ correctly 50 years ago, but that battle appears to have been lost, in the same way that ‘it’s me’ has won over the correct ‘it is i’ (it’s getting so that it’s almost a shock to read ‘it is i’ in novels).

‘He’ and ‘she’ aren’t obsolete words.  But by your comment, you seem to be trying to make them so.
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #304 on: January 07, 2019, 10:13:20 PM »
Do whatever you want.  My comment was tongue in cheek.  It’s none of my business whether you capitalise ‘bachfiend’ or not, in the same way that it’s no business of anyone if someone else uses ‘he’ or ‘she’ to refer to them (and ‘them’ is appropriate because ‘anyone’ isn’t a single specified person) instead of ‘they.’  Provided the comment shows at least the minimum of respect appropriate.

No. No no no. Refusing to use a person's preferred pronoun does not show the minimum of respect. It denies, dehumanises and causes real harm. Sure, in a majority of cases, you'll be able to safely assume someone's gender. But it's a bad habit. Me trying to break that habit is what kicked off this whole argument in the first place.

‘He’ and ‘she’ aren’t obsolete words.  But by your comment, you seem to be trying to make them so.

Excuse me. You are the one who said

I don’t want ‘he’ and ‘she’ to go the same way, with ‘they’ replacing both.

No-one's suggesting that gendered pronouns should be completely replaced. Actually I guess there probably are some people out there somewhere who is suggesting exactly that, but it's not me. I'm arguing for acceptance of a nonbinary pronoun that a large number of people prefer.

Tell me this, bachfiend. If I directly asked you to refer to me using the pronouns they/them, would you do so? Or would you continue to refer to me as "he" against my wishes?
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #305 on: January 07, 2019, 10:47:59 PM »
Do whatever you want.  My comment was tongue in cheek.  It’s none of my business whether you capitalise ‘bachfiend’ or not, in the same way that it’s no business of anyone if someone else uses ‘he’ or ‘she’ to refer to them (and ‘them’ is appropriate because ‘anyone’ isn’t a single specified person) instead of ‘they.’  Provided the comment shows at least the minimum of respect appropriate.

No. No no no. Refusing to use a person's preferred pronoun does not show the minimum of respect. It denies, dehumanises and causes real harm. Sure, in a majority of cases, you'll be able to safely assume someone's gender. But it's a bad habit. Me trying to break that habit is what kicked off this whole argument in the first place.

‘He’ and ‘she’ aren’t obsolete words.  But by your comment, you seem to be trying to make them so.

Excuse me. You are the one who said

I don’t want ‘he’ and ‘she’ to go the same way, with ‘they’ replacing both.

No-one's suggesting that gendered pronouns should be completely replaced. Actually I guess there probably are some people out there somewhere who is suggesting exactly that, but it's not me. I'm arguing for acceptance of a nonbinary pronoun that a large number of people prefer.

Tell me this, bachfiend. If I directly asked you to refer to me using the pronouns they/them, would you do so? Or would you continue to refer to me as "he" against my wishes?

You’re the one who wrote “Do ‘he’ and ‘she’ have some special value to you over that of other obsolete words such as ‘britches’ or ‘icebox’?”

And no, if you asked me to use ‘they/them’ for you, I wouldn’t.  1.  You’re just staging.  2.  ‘They’ doesn’t mean ‘he’ or ‘she.’

How does using ‘he’ or ‘she’ referring to a person dehumanise?  Unless I get the person’s gender deliberately wrong.  And why doesn’t referring to a person with ‘they’ or ‘it’ (the other suggested alternative) not dehumanise the person?
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #306 on: January 07, 2019, 11:00:02 PM »
And no, if you asked me to use ‘they/them’ for you, I wouldn’t.

I am very disappointed. From our interactions on other subjects, I took you to be a reasonable person. But by this sentence you reveal your true self.

If you will not acknowledge preferred pronouns, then you are not a good person. You have revealed yourself to be nothing but a bigoted asshole and our interaction now ends. I turn my back on you. I spit in your path. And I walk away.
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #307 on: January 08, 2019, 02:34:56 AM »
And no, if you asked me to use ‘they/them’ for you, I wouldn’t.

I am very disappointed. From our interactions on other subjects, I took you to be a reasonable person. But by this sentence you reveal your true self.

If you will not acknowledge preferred pronouns, then you are not a good person. You have revealed yourself to be nothing but a bigoted asshole and our interaction now ends. I turn my back on you. I spit in your path. And I walk away.

You can’t insult an anonymous person by not using a preferred 3rd person singular pronoun.  You’re just staging.  As you’ve noted, this debate has been going on for weeks.  If I’ve previously referred as ‘he’, and you’d objected to it, then you would have already complained.  But you haven’t.

Actually, this is really a pointless argument.  Most interactions on the Internet are anonymous.  The genders of the participants usually isn’t revealed unless the participant chooses to reveal it, as you did with your photo and CarbShark with his previous signature in part saying that he’s ‘a guy.’

I’ll use the appropriate pronoun if the person chooses to reveal it.   Otherwise I’ll be more more circumspect, not using any pronoun,   Let alone the default ‘he.’
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #308 on: January 08, 2019, 04:05:36 AM »
bachfiend, I think the problem fundamental disagreement on this forum comes down to the following:

The singular they is being widely adopted as a pronoun, both by the general public and by official style guides. This transition is primarily motivated by two considerations.
a) A recognition that gender is a much more complex phenomenon than the traditional male/female dichotomy. Making assumptions about a person's gender can inflict a lot of harm.
b) A recognition that grammar can reinforce existing biases (for example, referring to a hypothetical President as "he").

Adopting the singular they presents some challenges.
a) During the transition period, there will be some grammatical ambiguity, as you've repeatedly indicated. These ambiguities will fade as usage patterns change.
b) People will need to accept that the grammatical rules they learned as young children have changed.

It seems obvious to me that the social concerns about not inflicting harm and avoiding bias far outweigh any possible temporary grammatical awkwardness. Taking the opposite position displays a fundamental lack of knowledge about the importance of social issues regarding gender. I highly encourage you to try to learn more about these issues.

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #309 on: January 08, 2019, 02:34:50 PM »
bachfiend, I think the problem fundamental disagreement on this forum comes down to the following:

The singular they is being widely adopted as a pronoun, both by the general public and by official style guides. This transition is primarily motivated by two considerations.
a) A recognition that gender is a much more complex phenomenon than the traditional male/female dichotomy. Making assumptions about a person's gender can inflict a lot of harm.
b) A recognition that grammar can reinforce existing biases (for example, referring to a hypothetical President as "he").

Adopting the singular they presents some challenges.
a) During the transition period, there will be some grammatical ambiguity, as you've repeatedly indicated. These ambiguities will fade as usage patterns change.
b) People will need to accept that the grammatical rules they learned as young children have changed.

It seems obvious to me that the social concerns about not inflicting harm and avoiding bias far outweigh any possible temporary grammatical awkwardness. Taking the opposite position displays a fundamental lack of knowledge about the importance of social issues regarding gender. I highly encourage you to try to learn more about these issues.

My position all along has been that for single specified persons of readily ascertainable gender the appropriate 3rd person pronouns to use are either ‘he’ or ‘she.’

If a person disagrees with the gender recorded on that person’s birth certificate, and wants to change it, then it should be made easier.  Labelling that person as ‘they’ when talking about that person achieves absolutely nothing.  There would be grounds for complaint if there were gendered 2nd person singular pronouns, and the person involved was addressed with the wrong gender pronoun, but they don’t exist.

Future hypothetical presidents aren’t single specified persons of readily ascertainable gender, so the ‘rule’ doesn’t apply.  And most statements involving future hypothetical presidents can be put into the plural.

The overwhelming majority of single specified persons of readily ascertainable gender are perfectly happy to be referred to as either ‘he’ or ‘she,’ and many of them (including me) would be unhappy with ‘they.’ 

The disadvantages of ‘they’ outweigh its virtually nonexistent advantages.
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #310 on: January 08, 2019, 02:42:02 PM »
If a person disagrees with the gender recorded on that person’s birth certificate, and wants to change it, then it should be made easier.  Labelling that person as ‘they’ when talking about that person achieves absolutely nothing.  There would be grounds for complaint if there were gendered 2nd person singular pronouns, and the person involved was addressed with the wrong gender pronoun, but they don’t exist.

So what pronouns are you going to use for someone who identifies as non-binary gender/genderqueer and specifies that 'they' and 'their' are pronouns they wish everyone to use for them?

Do you respect their wish? or do you insult them because it doesn't fit your strict grammar rules?

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #311 on: January 08, 2019, 03:22:17 PM »
If a person disagrees with the gender recorded on that person’s birth certificate, and wants to change it, then it should be made easier.  Labelling that person as ‘they’ when talking about that person achieves absolutely nothing.  There would be grounds for complaint if there were gendered 2nd person singular pronouns, and the person involved was addressed with the wrong gender pronoun, but they don’t exist.

So what pronouns are you going to use for someone who identifies as non-binary gender/genderqueer and specifies that 'they' and 'their' are pronouns they wish everyone to use for them?

Do you respect their wish? or do you insult them because it doesn't fit your strict grammar rules?

Should I respect a person’s wish that he or she wants to be referred to as ‘Master of the Universe,’ even if it’s blatantly false?  If a person wishes to be referred as ‘they,’ then I won’t go along with it.  I’d just use the person’s name whenever necessary, and not use the pronoun.

If for example, CarbShark, for some reason decides ‘he’ wants to be referred to as ‘they,’ then I’d write: ‘CarbShark proselytises for low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diets, because, like most ideologues, CarbShark cherrypicks studies in order to claim that ketogenic diets are healthiest and best.’
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #312 on: January 08, 2019, 03:47:10 PM »
If a person disagrees with the gender recorded on that person’s birth certificate, and wants to change it, then it should be made easier.  Labelling that person as ‘they’ when talking about that person achieves absolutely nothing.  There would be grounds for complaint if there were gendered 2nd person singular pronouns, and the person involved was addressed with the wrong gender pronoun, but they don’t exist.

So what pronouns are you going to use for someone who identifies as non-binary gender/genderqueer and specifies that 'they' and 'their' are pronouns they wish everyone to use for them?

Do you respect their wish? or do you insult them because it doesn't fit your strict grammar rules?

Should I respect a person’s wish that he or she wants to be referred to as ‘Master of the Universe,’ even if it’s blatantly false?  If a person wishes to be referred as ‘they,’ then I won’t go along with it.  I’d just use the person’s name whenever necessary, and not use the pronoun.

If for example, CarbShark, for some reason decides ‘he’ wants to be referred to as ‘they,’ then I’d write: ‘CarbShark proselytises for low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diets, because, like most ideologues, CarbShark cherrypicks studies in order to claim that ketogenic diets are healthiest and best.’

And if you were to right that you'd be full of shit again.

Plus, there's the entire concept of writing to be read. If you have to continually repeat someone's name or continually use "he, if a male" or repeatedly use "he or she" your writing will be even less readable than it is now.
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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #313 on: January 08, 2019, 04:03:12 PM »
Should I respect a person’s wish that he or she wants to be referred to as ‘Master of the Universe,’ even if it’s blatantly false?  If a person wishes to be referred as ‘they,’ then I won’t go along with it.  I’d just use the person’s name whenever necessary, and not use the pronoun.

That's a false equivalency. Non-binary gender is a real thing that is recognised by society.

So you would rather be grammatically clumsy (and rude), than break one of your antiquated grammar rules (and be respectful)


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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #314 on: January 08, 2019, 04:09:53 PM »
If a person disagrees with the gender recorded on that person’s birth certificate, and wants to change it, then it should be made easier.  Labelling that person as ‘they’ when talking about that person achieves absolutely nothing.  There would be grounds for complaint if there were gendered 2nd person singular pronouns, and the person involved was addressed with the wrong gender pronoun, but they don’t exist.

So what pronouns are you going to use for someone who identifies as non-binary gender/genderqueer and specifies that 'they' and 'their' are pronouns they wish everyone to use for them?

Do you respect their wish? or do you insult them because it doesn't fit your strict grammar rules?

Should I respect a person’s wish that he or she wants to be referred to as ‘Master of the Universe,’ even if it’s blatantly false?  If a person wishes to be referred as ‘they,’ then I won’t go along with it.  I’d just use the person’s name whenever necessary, and not use the pronoun.

If for example, CarbShark, for some reason decides ‘he’ wants to be referred to as ‘they,’ then I’d write: ‘CarbShark proselytises for low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diets, because, like most ideologues, CarbShark cherrypicks studies in order to claim that ketogenic diets are healthiest and best.’

And if you were to right that you'd be full of shit again.

Plus, there's the entire concept of writing to be read. If you have to continually repeat someone's name or continually use "he, if a male" or repeatedly use "he or she" your writing will be even less readable than it is now.

You don’t necessarily need to repeat a person’s name or use pronouns.  You can write very long passages of text discussing what a particular person has said or written without having to repeat the person’s name or preferred pronoun.  And anyway, is ‘I saw John Smith this morning.  They are the chair of the ABC Corporation’ more readable than ‘I saw John Smith this morning.  He is the chairman of the ABC Corporation?’

If for some reason, John Smith decides to change his gender, or to insist that he wants to be referred to as ‘they,’ then I could reformulate  the statement as ‘This morning, I saw John Smith, the chair of the ABC Corporation.’
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