Episode #700

[bachfiend]

No.  I don’t have the time, even if I don’t waste it watching the rubbish on television.

Fair enough. Just to reiterate my previous point, you're not going to absorb the info presented in a transcript the same way you will from hearing the episode. One glance at that (horrifically formatted) transcript and I forgot what I was doing. The audio, however, is great. You may be hesitant to call the info presented "a load of crap" if it's actually digestible (reading a play-by-play vs hearing a game, for example). If you've already decided against it, oh well. It wouldn't be very fair to judge a movie if you've only read a script you found in a trash bin.

I find the written word more digestible than the spoken word.  For one thing, there’s a lesser possibility of misinterpretation.  When I listen to something, I often think ‘that’s a good point, I must look into it further,’ but almost invariably I forget it and never do.  When I’m reading something, and the same thing happens, I can go immediately to Safari on my iPad and check it out.

[Beef Wellington]

Did that include the 130 citations in the transcript Art mentioned? Or are they all part of the load of crap and not worth following? Not being snarky, I just didnt see you respond to that particular question he asked.

[bachfiend]

Did that include the 130 citations in the transcript Art mentioned? Or are they all part of the load of crap and not worth following? Not being snarky, I just didnt see you respond to that particular question he asked.

I didn’t find it interesting, so I didn’t bother looking into it further. 

Shouldn’t you be asking ‘I didn’t see you respond to that particular question they asked.’?

I hate the use of ‘they’ referring to single identified persons.  I agree that the English language should be degendered.  I’m very sympathetic to feminism, and I agree that often the best man for the job, is a woman (and I’m very pleased that the people who represent me in the state and national parliaments are both women).

I regard non-binary gender to be a non-issue.  It should be irrelevant whether a person regards ‘deyself’ as male, female or neither, ‘dey’ should be treated equally without prejudice.  Using ‘they’ instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ does very little good.

[Beef Wellington]

I didn’t find it interesting, so I didn’t bother looking into it further. 

Shouldn’t you be asking ‘I didn’t see you respond to that particular question they asked.’?

I hate the use of ‘they’ referring to single identified persons.  I agree that the English language should be degendered.  I’m very sympathetic to feminism, and I agree that often the best man for the job, is a woman (and I’m very pleased that the people who represent me in the state and national parliaments are both women).

I regard non-binary gender to be a non-issue.  It should be irrelevant whether a person regards ‘deyself’ as male, female or neither, ‘dey’ should be treated equally without prejudice.  Using ‘they’ instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ does very little good.

The only time I recall Arthwollipot asking to be called they was during a hypothetical posed to you, so until it's explicit I'll continue to use he. if I've missed something, I apologize.

Supporting feminism is great, but that's not the topic here. The bottom line for me on the pronoun discussion is respect. So what if the exact right word isn't agreed upon by cisgender folks? The change in language is to benefit non cis-gendered people, therefore they should get first dibs on their own wheelhouse. Language changes. The benefit to society outweighs any annoyance one may feel about the nomenclature. Ignoring their wishes is a form of disrespect which hinders our progress as a whole. It is not a non-issue.

[bachfiend]

I didn’t find it interesting, so I didn’t bother looking into it further. 

Shouldn’t you be asking ‘I didn’t see you respond to that particular question they asked.’?

I hate the use of ‘they’ referring to single identified persons.  I agree that the English language should be degendered.  I’m very sympathetic to feminism, and I agree that often the best man for the job, is a woman (and I’m very pleased that the people who represent me in the state and national parliaments are both women).

I regard non-binary gender to be a non-issue.  It should be irrelevant whether a person regards ‘deyself’ as male, female or neither, ‘dey’ should be treated equally without prejudice.  Using ‘they’ instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ does very little good.

The only time I recall Arthwollipot asking to be called they was during a hypothetical posed to you, so until it's explicit I'll continue to use he. if I've missed something, I apologize.

Supporting feminism is great, but that's not the topic here. The bottom line for me on the pronoun discussion is respect. So what if the exact right word isn't agreed upon by cisgender folks? The change in language is is to benefit non cis-gendered people, therefore they should get first dibs on their own wheelhouse. Language changes. The benefit to society outweighs any annoyance one may feel about the nomenclature. Ignoring their wishes is a form of disrespect which hinders our progress as a whole. It is not a non-issue.

Well, the non-cis-gendered (god, I hate this terminology) can’t agree amongst themselves which nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun they want, so it’s difficult to know which pronoun to use, in the unlikely event that i ever feel the need to comment on a non-cis-gendered person.  Am I supposed to ask in advance which pronoun I should be using?

I try to avoid ‘he’ when I’m referring to an unspecified single person, who could be of either gender, sometimes using ‘she’ instead (as is commonly done).

My comment regarding your use of ‘he’ with Arthwollipot was very much tongue in cheek.  They had started this storm in a teacup by referring to CarbShark as ‘they’ despite the fact that they are definitely male, and in the absence of any indication that they want to be referred to as ‘they.’. The last sentence was also tongue in cheek.  I think CarbShark (probably tongue in cheek) has written that they want ‘they’, probably around the time he (?they) changed his (?their) signature from ‘guy’ to ‘someone.’

[Tassie Dave]

Well, the non-cis-gendered (god, I hate this terminology) can’t agree amongst themselves which nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun they want, so it’s difficult to know which pronoun to use, in the unlikely event that i ever feel the need to comment on a non-cis-gendered person.  Am I supposed to ask in advance which pronoun I should be using?

Where's the 'slaps forehead' emoji or the 'bangs head against a brick wall' emoji

We've gone over this 'numerous' times, If you know they are non-binary gendered, then default to 'they'. They won't be offended if it is the wrong non-gendered pronoun and may state a preference for another pronoun, which, if you respect their rights, you will use in future.

[bachfiend]

Well, the non-cis-gendered (god, I hate this terminology) can’t agree amongst themselves which nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun they want, so it’s difficult to know which pronoun to use, in the unlikely event that i ever feel the need to comment on a non-cis-gendered person.  Am I supposed to ask in advance which pronoun I should be using?

Where's the 'slaps forehead' emoji or the 'bangs head against a brick wall' emoji

We've gone over this 'numerous' times, If you know they are non-binary gendered, then default to 'they'. They won't be offended if it is the wrong non-gendered pronoun and may state a preference for another pronoun, which, if you respect their rights, you will use in future.

I never know whether a person is non-binary gendered.  I’m not interested in non-binary gender politics.  I never look at non-binary gender websites.  I’m. Just.  Not.  Interested.  It’s a non-issue as far as I’m concerned.  It shouldn’t matter if a person is male, female or neither.  All people should be treated equally.  The only time I’m going to refer to a non-binary gender person is if a person commenting on a global warming, environmental degradation, species extinction, or whatever else I’m interested in, website just happens to be non-binary gendered.  I’m not going to refer to that person as ‘they,’ just in case (as Arthwollipot did automatically with CarbShark).

I hope you’ll be dropping out too?  This discussion has been going on too long.

[Harry Black]

We get it. You voted for a woman. Good job.
You are still a transphobic bigot based on what you have said in this thread.
But I suppose respecting peoples wishes on how to be referred to is just "political correctness gone mad".

Absolutely pathetic and utterly self unaware.

[Tassie Dave]

I hope you’ll be dropping out too?  This discussion has been going on too long.

Just when I thought I was out 'They", literally, pull me back in 

[fuzzyMarmot]

Despite the frustrations of arguing with bachfiend on this thread, I think it has been very illuminating.

At first, I thought bf just didn't understand how languages change over time. Gradually it became apparent that the real problem was bf's ignorance about gender. It seems that the problem may be even deeper, and be based on a lack of empathy for marginalized groups.

This has been a useful lesson that seemingly quotidian arguments about grammar are often surrogates for much larger social issues.

[bachfiend]

We get it. You voted for a woman. Good job.
You are still a transphobic bigot based on what you have said in this thread.
But I suppose respecting peoples wishes on how to be referred to is just "political correctness gone mad".

Absolutely pathetic and utterly self unaware.

OK, I’m a ‘transphobic bigot,’ because I think that non-binary gender rights are to me a non-issue.  They should have the rights as a matter of course, automatically, without having to fight for them.  I accept your label ‘with pride.’

I’ve never had to ‘respect people’s wishes on how to be referred to’ because I don’t look at non-binary gender websites.  I might refer to non-binary gender people if they comment on issues I care about (eg global warming, environmental degradation, species extinction) on other websites, but I wouldn’t know.  I’m not going to refer to everyone, regardless of gender or preference, with ‘they.’

I don’t like the use of ‘they’ for single identified persons.  If a non-gendered 3rd person pronoun is considered desirable, then one should be devised.  I think dey/deyn/deys/deyself would be reasonable.

[stands2reason]

If the world had more people like Bachfiend, literally wouldn't literally mean figuratively.

I hope I don't live long enough to see, "infer," and, "imply," end up the same way.

Are you inferring [sic] that this is not a constructive discussion?

[bachfiend]

If the world had more people like Bachfiend, literally wouldn't literally mean figuratively.

I hope I don't live long enough to see, "infer," and, "imply," end up the same way.

Are you inferring [sic] that this is not a constructive discussion?

‘Dey’ (I have no idea whether Soldier of FORTAN is male or female, or even of ‘non-binary gender’ since the information isn’t on deys profile, so I’m using my suggested 3rd person singular pronoun) is implying that this isn’t a constructive discussion.  And you’re inferring that that is what ‘dey’ is saying.

And if I’m inferring correctly what ‘dey’ is implying, then ‘dey’s’ correct.  It isn’t a constructive discussion.

All I was saying was that if a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun was considered desirable, then devise a new one instead of coopting ‘they,’ which just creates ambiguity and confusion.

I admit I must be a ‘transphobic bigot’ because I never look at non-binary gender websites so as to use the correct preferred pronoun in the same way that I’m a ‘Wotan bigot’ because I never look at Nordic religion websites.

[Tassie Dave]

I admit I must be a ‘transphobic bigot’ because I never look at non-binary gender websites so as to use the correct preferred pronoun

  Which is why we keep telling you to use 'they' as a default, until you know the preferred pronoun.

What makes someone a bigot, racist, sexist, xenophobe, homophobic, transphobic, ageist etc is intent or knowledge.

You don't intend to be any of those. But knowing that it is wrong to mislabel or use the wrong pronoun, you have stated you won't because it is against your grammatical code. Society has decided it fits into our language.
Transgender and non-binary gender persons are becoming more mainstream and open about their identity, so you will, even if you don't know it, be seeing them everywhere you are online and IRL.

I think everyone is over this conversation. 

[bachfiend]

I admit I must be a ‘transphobic bigot’ because I never look at non-binary gender websites so as to use the correct preferred pronoun

  Which is why we keep telling you to use 'they' as a default, until you know the preferred pronoun.

What makes someone a bigot, racist, sexist, xenophobe, homophobic, transphobic, ageist etc is intent or knowledge.

You don't intend to be any of those. But knowing that it is wrong to mislabel or use the wrong pronoun, you have stated you won't because it is against your grammatical code. Society has decided it fits into our language.
Transgender and non-binary gender persons are becoming more mainstream and open about their identity, so you will, even if you don't know it, be seeing them everywhere you are online and IRL.

I think everyone is over this conversation. 

So I ‘have’ to use ‘they’ for everyone if I’m referring to a single identified person just in case that person happens to be transgender or non-binary gender?  If I’m going to be seeing transgender or non-binary gender people everywhere online and in real life, without knowing it?  So you’re telling me I have to stop using ‘he’ and ‘she,’ and only use ‘they’ as the 2nd person pronoun, both singular and plural?