Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 22458 times)

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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #390 on: January 12, 2019, 07:19:34 PM »
You have to have the last word.  ;)

You can use 'he' or 'she' if you know the gender. Everyone here has said that. Repeatedly
If someone uses 'they' for a male or a female it's not wrong in today's world. Again said repeatedly.
'They' is a good default if the gender is unknown. Again .......
'They' is a good default if it is known the person is non-binary gender and you don't know their preferred pronouns. Again .......
'They' is the only acceptable singular pronoun if they state that it is their preferred pronoun. Again .......

Now for my final word.

Discombobulation  ;D




Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #391 on: January 12, 2019, 08:11:13 PM »
You have to have the last word.  ;)

You can use 'he' or 'she' if you know the gender. Everyone here has said that. Repeatedly
If someone uses 'they' for a male or a female it's not wrong in today's world. Again said repeatedly.
'They' is a good default if the gender is unknown. Again .......
'They' is a good default if it is known the person is non-binary gender and you don't know their preferred pronouns. Again .......
'They' is the only acceptable singular pronoun if they state that it is their preferred pronoun. Again .......

Now for my final word.

Discombobulation  ;D

But you’ve also said that I’m going to be meeting transgender and non-binary people everywhere online and in real life, without knowing it.  So if I don’t know that they’re not transgender or non-binary gender, then I’m obliged to use ‘they’ until they tell me that ‘he’ or ‘she’ is appropriate for the specified single person.  Which probably won’t happen, so ‘he’ and ‘she’ would disappear.

All this argument started because Arthwollipot used ‘they’ referring to CarbShark, a single person, and male, partly because he’s trying to use non-gendered pronouns as a rule.

I can sort of see how this could develop.  ‘Thou’ and ‘ye’ have disappeared from the English language, leaving just ‘you.’  German still has ‘du/Sie’ (singular) and ‘ihr/Sie’ (plural) for ‘you.’  If one addresses one or more people with ‘you’ it’s usually obvious whether the person is addressing one person or more than one person from the context.

‘They’ could become the 3rd person pronoun, both singular and plural, in the same way that ‘you’ is the 2nd person pronoun, singular and plural, with ‘thou’ (singular) and ‘ye’ (plural) disappearing.

And then if ‘they’ is ambiguous, then you’d need to devise some way of removing ambiguity.  ‘Alex left the room carrying their own laptop’ (it’s her laptop) versus ‘Alex left the room carrying their laptop’ (it’s someone else’s laptop).

I’m just extending the argument.  There are infrequent occasions when we don’t know the gender of single specified persons, so we can’t use ‘he’ or ‘she’ without being wrong half the time (it’s a different situation to not using ‘he’ as the default pronoun for a single generic person - feminism has rightly won this battle).  There are occasions when we don’t know the gender identification of single specified persons or the preferred pronoun, and you’ve stated I’m going to be meeting these people everywhere without knowing it.

So using ‘they’ would become the default pronoun regardless.  It’s doable.  People in future centuries reading texts from pre-21st centuries would have to be taught that ‘he’ and ‘she’ were archaic forms of ‘they’ in the same way that we had to learn that ‘thou’ and ‘ye’ are archaic forms of ‘you.’
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Offline fuzzyMarmot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #392 on: January 13, 2019, 12:54:23 AM »

I admit I must be a ‘transphobic bigot’ because I never look at non-binary gender websites so as to use the correct preferred pronoun in the same way that I’m a ‘Wotan bigot’ because I never look at Nordic religion websites.

It doesn't matter what websites you visit. It doesn't matter what you find interesting. It doesn't matter what grammatical constructions you prefer. What matters is recognizing the plight of marginalized groups, demonstrating empathy and kindness, and working to increase your awareness. Your repeated use of false analogies shows your lack of understanding of these issues.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #393 on: January 13, 2019, 02:53:27 AM »

I admit I must be a ‘transphobic bigot’ because I never look at non-binary gender websites so as to use the correct preferred pronoun in the same way that I’m a ‘Wotan bigot’ because I never look at Nordic religion websites.

It doesn't matter what websites you visit. It doesn't matter what you find interesting. It doesn't matter what grammatical constructions you prefer. What matters is recognizing the plight of marginalized groups, demonstrating empathy and kindness, and working to increase your awareness. Your repeated use of false analogies shows your lack of understanding of these issues.

I don’t visit non-binary genderwebsites, so I have no reason to think that the person I’m referring to, if I’m referring to another person commenting on the website I’m visiting, is transgender or of non-binary gender, so I wouldn’t be able to know whether to use ‘he,’ ‘she,’ or ‘they.’

If I don’t know the gender of the person I’m referring to, I’m circumspect about the choice of pronoun I use, avoiding the previous default pronoun of ‘he.’

If by some chance, I happen to know that the person I’m referring to is transgender or of non-binary gender, and prefers ‘their,’ I’m not obliged to use it.  Suppose CarbShark announced that he’s transgender, I don’t have to write ‘CarbShark proselytises for ketogenic diets.  They claim they are healthier.’  I could write ‘CarbShark proselytises for ketogenic diets, claiming that they’re healthier.’  All I have to do is avoid using pronouns, and I’m happy (I didn’t have to use ‘they’), and possibly CarbShark is happy.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #394 on: January 13, 2019, 09:21:56 PM »
I think everyone is over this conversation.  ;)

And how sad it is that bachfiend appears to have learned absolutely nothing from it.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #395 on: January 13, 2019, 09:40:35 PM »
I think everyone is over this conversation.  ;)

And how sad it is that bachfiend appears to have learned absolutely nothing from it.

What haven’t I learned?  I know that you shouldn’t use default gender pronouns.  I’d realised that ever since I accepted the feminist position that ‘he’ isn’t the default pronoun for a single generic (non-identified) person.  ‘Anyone can succeed if they try’ is correct.  ‘Anyone can succeed if he tries’ is incorrect.

I’ve also learned that some people will to go extreme lengths to justify using ‘they’ for single identified persons if they don’t know the person’s gender or gender identification.  Without knowing whether the person is transgender or of non-binary gender.  And practically, almost always on the Internet.  If you’re relating to a person in the real world, the natural pronoun is ‘you,’ which is non-gendered, and everyone in the real world, with no exceptions, deserves to be treated with equal respect and politeness.

To go back to the start of this increasingly pointless storm in a tea cup argument, if a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun is thought desirable, then one should be devised, not coopt ‘they.’  I think my idea from the German dey/deyn/deyself/deys is a good one.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #396 on: January 13, 2019, 10:34:22 PM »
Temporarily lifting my self-imposed exile here to once again point out that there have been many proposals for gender-neutral third person pronouns over decades. There is a summary of them on Wikipedia. None of them caught on, and none of them are in regular use today. The singular they has, and is.

And now you may return to yelling into the void.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #397 on: January 13, 2019, 10:56:11 PM »
Temporarily lifting my self-imposed exile here to once again point out that there have been many proposals for gender-neutral third person pronouns over decades. There is a summary of them on Wikipedia. None of them caught on, and none of them are in regular use today. The singular they has, and is.

And now you may return to yelling into the void.

Don't drop the community as a whole. Selective hearing is a time honoured traditional skill honed in relationships since time immemorial. "Block" is just a current manifestation of that ancient practice. ;)
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #398 on: January 13, 2019, 10:57:36 PM »
Temporarily lifting my self-imposed exile here to once again point out that there have been many proposals for gender-neutral third person pronouns over decades. There is a summary of them on Wikipedia. None of them caught on, and none of them are in regular use today. The singular they has, and is.
Mo
And now you may return to yelling into the void.

The suggested alternatives are all pretty ugly.  The German ‘dey’ (pronounced to rhyme with ‘they’) isn’t, and it’s similar enough to ‘they’ to not grate.  And it’s not ambiguous.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #399 on: January 13, 2019, 10:58:13 PM »
Temporarily lifting my self-imposed exile here to once again point out that there have been many proposals for gender-neutral third person pronouns over decades. There is a summary of them on Wikipedia. None of them caught on, and none of them are in regular use today. The singular they has, and is.

And now you may return to yelling into the void.

Don't drop the community as a whole. Selective hearing is a time honoured traditional skill honed in relationships since time immemorial. "Block" is just a current manifestation of that ancient practice. ;)

I meant exile from this thread. :D
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #400 on: January 13, 2019, 11:00:46 PM »
Temporarily lifting my self-imposed exile here to once again point out that there have been many proposals for gender-neutral third person pronouns over decades. There is a summary of them on Wikipedia. None of them caught on, and none of them are in regular use today. The singular they has, and is.

And now you may return to yelling into the void.

Don't drop the community as a whole. Selective hearing is a time honoured traditional skill honed in relationships since time immemorial. "Block" is just a current manifestation of that ancient practice. ;)

I meant exile from this thread. :D

Tellin'ya, block is really helpful in my not getting sucked back in. YMMV of course. (Miss you on Mafia)
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #401 on: January 14, 2019, 01:57:20 PM »
I accept that transgender and non-binary gender adolescents have it tough with lack of support and acceptance in their families, schools and amongst their peers.  And with bullying.  Adolescents can be very cruel and vicious to others they regard as different, particularly now with social media which allow comments to be published and propagated widely, almost instantly, at the click of a button.

In Australia, there’s a Safe School aimed at reducing bullying and addressing LGBTIQ issues.  I don’t have any particular personal opinion about it (I don’t have any children or grandchildren in the schools), but since the conservatives and religious think it’s bad, I tend to think it’s good.

I’m sceptical that refusing to use ‘they’ referring to a single identified person who is not known to be of transgender or of non-binary gender on a random website such as this is going to cause a vulnerable adolescent being bullied to attempt to commit suicide.  Or to claim thinking of suicide.  I haven’t seen or found any evidence that using the ‘right’ 3rd person singular pronoun will reverse the pernicious effects of bullying and lack of support and acceptance.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #402 on: January 14, 2019, 06:09:49 PM »
Just ran this by my non binary friend over pints this evening.
They were highly animated and offended.

You dont need to frequent particular "websites", these people are in the world and likely avoiding confrontation by not making a big deal when you misgender them.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #403 on: January 14, 2019, 06:45:20 PM »
Just ran this by my non binary friend over pints this evening.
They were highly animated and offended.

You dont need to frequent particular "websites", these people are in the world and likely avoiding confrontation by not making a big deal when you misgender them.

I don’t ‘misgender’ people when I know that they’re transgender or of non-binary gender.  If they’re transgender, then it’s because they want to be identified with the other gender to the one on their birth certificates, so I’ll use the pronoun appropriate, either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  And if they’re of non-binary gender, then I just won’t use any pronoun.

But I won’t use ‘they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun for single identified persons, when I don’t know even if they’re transgender or of non-binary gender, which is usually on the Internet.  In the real world, the natural pronoun is ‘you,’ which is non-gendered (there are other languages which do have gendered versions of ‘you’ apparently, so English in comparison isn’t bad - German for example is worse).
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #404 on: February 07, 2019, 01:44:31 PM »
Resurrecting another dead thread:

This is an interesting interview with a copy editor. At the end of the interview they discuss the use of "they" as a non-gendered pronoun.



Fresh Air by NPR on Apple Podcasts


Quote
Random House Copy Chief / Inside The 1954 'Star Is Born'
ReleasedFeb 05, 2019

Dreyer is the copy chief for Random House. He talks with Terry Gross about collaborating with authors, passive voice, and gender neutral pronouns. His new book is 'Dreyer's English: An Utterly Correct Guide to Clarity and Style.' But, he says, "the last thing that I want to do is pass myself off as some sort of ferocious gatekeeper."  ...

Here's a direct link:



Random House Copy Chief: Stand Tall, Wordsmiths! (But Choose Your Battles) : NPR


Quote
The last thing that I want to do is to pass myself off as some sort of ferocious gatekeeper who — in some sort of argument about the purity and the wonder of the English language, and how it must be preserved — is simply being unkind and cruel to other human beings.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 01:48:45 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

 

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