Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 18313 times)

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #465 on: February 13, 2019, 11:49:40 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Alabanza

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Alabanza identifies as black, trans feminine, gender non-conforming, and uses the pronouns "they/them".[9][10] Alabanza speaks out for trans rights and the importance of safe spaces and communities for gender non-conforming and transgender people.[11]

...he said, doing bachfiend's homework for him. I'll stop there for now, but could go on if more evidence is needed.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #466 on: February 14, 2019, 12:22:16 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Alabanza

Quote
Alabanza identifies as black, trans feminine, gender non-conforming, and uses the pronouns "they/them".[9][10] Alabanza speaks out for trans rights and the importance of safe spaces and communities for gender non-conforming and transgender people.[11]

...he said, doing bachfiend's homework for him. I'll stop there for now, but could go on if more evidence is needed.

What the heck does a bunch of links to single specified people of readily identifiable (or perhaps not) gender have to do with my suggestion that there are many people in the general community who will refuse to use the ‘singular they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun, in order to possibly avoid offending transgender and non-binary gender persons?

I’m thinking of religious conservatives.  I’m certain Tony Abbott will disagree.  I’m pretty certain that Scott ‘stop the boats’ Morrison will also disagree, since both also opposed the innocuous Same Sex marriage proposal.

And you haven’t addressed my comment that if the ‘singular they’ is widely accepted as the default pronoun, then you wouldn’t need to harp on it so much.  I read this morning about Parkinson’s corrolary to Parkinson’s Law.  The law is that the work expands to fill the time available to it.  The corollary is apparently that the attention spent on a matter is inversely proportional to its importance.  The building of a nuclear reactor gets waved through, because it’s too big and complex to understand, but discussions whether to have full cream or hi-lo milk in the tearoom take hours, because everyone has opinions about milk.

This argument is a perfect example of the corollary, if it exists (and it should).
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #467 on: February 14, 2019, 12:53:00 AM »
Okay I admit to misreading you there, and answering a question that you didn't ask.

Yes, I'm sure that there will be tons of people out there who will oppose gender-neutral pronouns for reasons equally as spurious as your own. They're wrong too.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #468 on: February 14, 2019, 12:54:08 AM »
And you haven’t addressed my comment that if the ‘singular they’ is widely accepted as the default pronoun, then you wouldn’t need to harp on it so much.

I never claimed that it was widely accepted as a default pronoun. I said that I was using it as a default pronoun, and that's all.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #469 on: February 14, 2019, 05:37:29 AM »
Okay I admit to misreading you there, and answering a question that you didn't ask.

Yes, I'm sure that there will be tons of people out there who will oppose gender-neutral pronouns for reasons equally as spurious as your own. They're wrong too.

My reasons for not wanting to use ‘they’ as the non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun for single specified persons of readily determined gender are not spurious.  I have always said that if one is considered desirable, another one should be devised.

But it’s a minor problem.  English is a relatively non-gendered language.  If you were a non-binary gender actor in Germany you’d have to choose whether you’re a ‘Schauspieler’ (male) or a ‘Schauspielerin’ (female) with the mandatory pronouns ‘er’ (he) or ‘sie’ (she) respectively.  Bullying and ridiculing of minorities and the vulnerable are much greater problems.
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Offline 2397

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #470 on: February 14, 2019, 07:47:43 AM »
In Norwegian we have the words "skuespiller" and "skuespillerinne", but it's quite common to say "kvinnelig skuespiller", "female actor". And in general, the gendered terms have been or are being phased out. Which usually means stop using the female version. Where "-mann" has been used in a gender neutral way, it could be changed to "-person", or a different word entirely.

I'm not sure why that wouldn't work just as well in German. A Schauspieler is someone who's doing a Schauspiel, "show play" or play. The term isn't intrinsically male.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 07:50:41 AM by 2397 »

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #471 on: February 14, 2019, 10:45:17 AM »
And you haven’t addressed my comment that if the ‘singular they’ is widely accepted as the default pronoun, then you wouldn’t need to harp on it so much.

I never claimed that it was widely accepted as a default pronoun. I said that I was using it as a default pronoun, and that's all.
Well...the reason its not common is because of transphobic/transerasing bigots.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #472 on: February 14, 2019, 03:35:00 PM »
In Norwegian we have the words "skuespiller" and "skuespillerinne", but it's quite common to say "kvinnelig skuespiller", "female actor". And in general, the gendered terms have been or are being phased out. Which usually means stop using the female version. Where "-mann" has been used in a gender neutral way, it could be changed to "-person", or a different word entirely.

I'm not sure why that wouldn't work just as well in German. A Schauspieler is someone who's doing a Schauspiel, "show play" or play. The term isn't intrinsically male.

Yes, but in German, all nouns have gender.  ‘Der Schauspieler’ is a masculine noun, just like ‘der Tisch’ (the table).  Both take ‘er’ (he or it) as the 3rd person pronoun.    There is a German noun ‘der Spielmann’ (which actually means jester, not actor).  It could be modified to ‘die Spielperson’ (and have its meaning modified to mean actor of either sex), but ‘die Person’ is a feminine noun, and takes ‘sie’ (she).

When Germans are talking about actors of either gender they have to use ‘die Schauspieler(innen).’  ‘Die Schauspieler’ and ‘die Schauspielerinnen’ are more than one actors of male or female gender respectively.

To make things worse, there are some person nouns that are neuter, such as ‘das Mädchen’ (the girl) and ‘das Fräulein’ (the young woman), and both take ‘es’ (it).

German is hopelessly gendered.  It’s been suggested that ‘dey’ should be adopted as a non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun referring to named persons, which I quite like.  It could be adopted in English quite easily, to be pronounced to rhyme like ‘they.’  It also doesn’t grate, unlike the other suggested replacements.  Even if it’s misheard by some people as ‘they,’ nothing is lost, since ‘they’ is being pushed as the default 3rd person singular pronoun for single specified persons of readily identifiable gender.

By the way, since you’re Norwegian, do you understand Danish and Swedish?  How do they compare?  There was a discussion on another episode concerning how closely related standard German and Swiss German (or at least the many regional dialects) are.

Harry Black,

If ‘dey’ was adopted as the default 3rd person singular pronoun, I would grab it with joy, and use it in all cases.  It would save me from having to use clumsy constructions such as ‘he or she’ or (s)he.’  I still haven’t come across a non-binary gender person, but then I don’t live much in the real world, and don’t have much social contact.  I think ‘dey’ would be the perfect pronoun, not ‘they,’ which is ambiguous.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #473 on: February 14, 2019, 07:31:46 PM »
Dey will not be adopted. Who are you even trying to communicate that preference to if, as you insist, you are so isolated from trans people? Do you expect us to go forward amd make your shitty case for you?
Your refusal to compromise your petty grammar standards makes you a bigot.
End of story.

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #474 on: February 14, 2019, 07:45:32 PM »
Well, now I know all I need to know.  Thanks bachfiend, or as I will now think of you in my mind, 'Jordan B Peterson-lite'

You're quite the ass and I hope no transgender person ever encounters you.


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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #475 on: February 14, 2019, 08:43:27 PM »
My reasons for not wanting to use ‘they’ as the non-gendered 3rd person singular pronoun for single specified persons of readily determined gender are not spurious.

Yes they are.

I have always said that if one is considered desirable, another one should be devised.

As I never tire of pointing out, many have been devised, and none of them caught on. If you want to use dey/dem, then I absolutely encourage you to do so. It's way better than default-male, and a lot easier to use than some other proposals. But don't expect anyone else to start using it just because you do.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #476 on: February 14, 2019, 10:05:44 PM »
Well, if I insist on using ‘dey’ if I am hypothetically asked by a hypothetical transgender or non-binary gender person, when dey asks me to use ‘they’ instead of ‘he’ or ‘she,’ will I be accused of being a transphobic bigot, then I’ll do it.

Languages have rules and an inner logic in order to communicate clearly.  One rule is that ‘they’ refers to two or more persons, if they’re specified.  And single unspecified persons (‘anyone can succeed if they try,’ not ‘anyone can succeed if he tries,’ - I don’t use ‘he’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun).

Many people object to the ‘singular they’ for single specified persons, and not because they’re conservative religious bigots.  ‘Kilometre’ has been widely mispronounced like ‘thermometer’ instead of ‘millimetre’ ever since the metric system was adopted in Australia decades ago, but there are still people in Australia who pronounce it correctly (rarely, it’s almost a shock to hear it pronounced correctly, logically).  And I insist on pronouncing it correctly.

Transgender and non-binary gender persons have much bigger problems than the choice of 3rd person singular pronouns, such as bullying and being ridiculed.

If I promise to hypothetically use ‘dey’ instead of ‘they’ when hypothetically asked will I continue to be slandered as a transphobic bigot?  If so, then that’s what I’ll do.  End of argument.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #477 on: February 14, 2019, 10:30:20 PM »
In Alice in Wonderland, Humpty Dumpty said that he uses words as he pleases, and if he asks them to do extra duty he’ll pay them more. But real languages evolve naturally, and new words or new usages of old words catch on or not. It’s rare that someone sets out to create a word and it catches on, and when it does, it’s generally because the person who uses it is in some position of respect in a field, or is popular for some reason. I don’t think you have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting “dey” adopted, and as it comes from German I wouldn’t even use it myself.

Bachfiend, I get it that you don’t like using “they” as a singular. The curmudgeon in me doesn’t like it either. But we’re a couple of old farts and the world is going to leave us behind regardless, and sooner if we insist on clinging to yesterday’s grammar, which, note, was itself new and rebellious at one time.

These young whippersnappers are ruining the grammar of our beloved 1950’s English, but there are fights to fight and fights to decline gracefully. I respectfully submit that “they” is not worth fighting over.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #478 on: February 14, 2019, 10:58:31 PM »
In Alice in Wonderland, Humpty Dumpty said that he uses words as he pleases, and if he asks them to do extra duty he’ll pay them more. But real languages evolve naturally, and new words or new usages of old words catch on or not. It’s rare that someone sets out to create a word and it catches on, and when it does, it’s generally because the person who uses it is in some position of respect in a field, or is popular for some reason. I don’t think you have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting “dey” adopted, and as it comes from German I wouldn’t even use it myself.

Bachfiend, I get it that you don’t like using “they” as a singular. The curmudgeon in me doesn’t like it either. But we’re a couple of old farts and the world is going to leave us behind regardless, and sooner if we insist on clinging to yesterday’s grammar, which, note, was itself new and rebellious at one time.

These young whippersnappers are ruining the grammar of our beloved 1950’s English, but there are fights to fight and fights to decline gracefully. I respectfully submit that “they” is not worth fighting over.

I agree with you on many things.  And I make a point of reading your comments carefully because you often give me interesting ideas.  This isn’t one of them.  I won’t decline the fight against the ‘singular they’ being used for single specified persons, the mispronunciation of ‘kilometre’ like ‘thermometer,’ and ‘it’s me’ instead of ‘it is I.’  There are many old farts pedants such as I around who object to the degradation of the glorious English language.  Insisting on ‘it is I’ isn’t just pedantry. I was impressed that JK Rowling used ‘it is I’ in one of her Harry Potter novels, and in dialogue too.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #479 on: February 14, 2019, 11:44:11 PM »
I agree with you on many things.  And I make a point of reading your comments carefully because you often give me interesting ideas.  This isn’t one of them.  I won’t decline the fight against the ‘singular they’ being used for single specified persons, the mispronunciation of ‘kilometre’ like ‘thermometer,’ and ‘it’s me’ instead of ‘it is I.’  There are many old farts pedants such as I around who object to the degradation of the glorious English language.  Insisting on ‘it is I’ isn’t just pedantry. I was impressed that JK Rowling used ‘it is I’ in one of her Harry Potter novels, and in dialogue too.

Like I said, spurious. The "degradation of the glorious English language"? Give me a break. The English language has never been glorious. It's a chaotic mishmash of other languages, and always has been. English is like three languages standing on each others' shoulders wearing a trenchcoat. Except it's more like thirty, and it's changing all the time. Opposing change on the basis of "I liked it better the way it used to be" is the very definition of spurious.
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