Author Topic: Episode #700  (Read 25652 times)

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Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #555 on: February 19, 2019, 09:05:41 PM »
Well, what is non-binary gender?  Something without a definition isn’t something, it’s a nothing.

Non-binary is anything, yes anything, that is not binary. Pretty simple.

I’m an atheist, because I claim that a god or gods don’t exist.

You're not an atheist because you claim gods don't exist, that's tacked on after the basic requirement of not being convinced gods exist has already been met.

So what am I?  A transphobic bigot?

You'll have to ask another poster, I'm staying out of that game.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #556 on: February 19, 2019, 09:25:08 PM »
The ‘wrong’ pronoun in comparison is very very minor and trivial.

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #557 on: February 19, 2019, 09:26:27 PM »
Beef Wellington,

So what is non-binary gender?  Being ‘not something’ is not ‘being something.’

I’m not a lot of things.  I’m not a stamp collector, but that doesn’t make me a ‘non-stamp collector.’  My identity doesn’t depend on my being a ‘non-stamp collector.’

In Perth Australia, most people support one of the two local AFL clubs, the Eagles or the Dockers, so it’s binary.  Perth people are either Eagles supporters or Dockers supporters.   But there is a small minority of Perth people who are neither.  But they’re not ‘non-binary AFL football supporters.’  They either don’t like the game, or they support other teams.  Whatever. 
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #558 on: February 19, 2019, 09:32:57 PM »
The ‘wrong’ pronoun in comparison is very very minor and trivial.



Well, why don’t you take it up with Martina Navratilova?  She’s a female homosexual athlete and tennis player with a transsexual friend and coach, who quite happily used ‘he’ and ‘she’ to describe transsexual people.

The choice of 3rd person singular pronoun seems to be a matter of personal choice, and is a ‘whatever.’  I’ll ask you.  I get the idea of transgender.  But what is non-binary gender?  It just seems to be a ‘whatever’ too.  A condition without a definition isn’t a condition, it’s a non-condition.
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Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #559 on: February 19, 2019, 09:39:10 PM »
Beef Wellington,

So what is non-binary gender?  Being ‘not something’ is not ‘being something.’

I’m not a lot of things.  I’m not a stamp collector, but that doesn’t make me a ‘non-stamp collector.’  My identity doesn’t depend on my being a ‘non-stamp collector.’

In Perth Australia, most people support one of the two local AFL clubs, the Eagles or the Dockers, so it’s binary.  Perth people are either Eagles supporters or Dockers supporters.   But there is a small minority of Perth people who are neither.  But they’re not ‘non-binary AFL football supporters.’  They either don’t like the game, or they support other teams.  Whatever.

Yes, you are a non-stamp collector. You probably just don't care enough to tell the people around you. The people who identify as non-binary, however, DO care, so they let people know. We, as a society, should respect these preferences accordingly. It's very basic stuff and this is clearly going nowhere. It was going nowhere 5 weeks ago.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #560 on: February 19, 2019, 10:26:12 PM »
Well, why don’t you take it up with Martina Navratilova?  She’s a female homosexual athlete and tennis player with a transsexual friend and coach, who quite happily used ‘he’ and ‘she’ to describe transsexual people.

And she probably asked first. It's true - many transsexual people do use definite masculine or feminine pronouns. The danger is in assuming that you know without asking.

The choice of 3rd person singular pronoun seems to be a matter of personal choice, and is a ‘whatever.’  I’ll ask you.  I get the idea of transgender.  But what is non-binary gender?  It just seems to be a ‘whatever’ too.  A condition without a definition isn’t a condition, it’s a non-condition.

At the risk of repeating myself,



Nonbinary gender means that you are of a gender that is not male, and not female. You are a third gender. Maybe a fourth, or a fifth. If you are not gendered at all, that's agender or genderless. And yes, there are people who identify as agender.

And about "whatever" and lumping groups of people into a generic "other" category, I will link to this academic dissertation in the form of a five-part webcomic. I know you won't read it, but you really should. You really really should. The first is an introduction.

Notice
Other One
Other Two
Other Three
Other Four
Other Five

In fact, this is a good opportunity for me to re-read that too, because it is important and I need a refresher.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #561 on: February 19, 2019, 10:31:37 PM »
Spies blackmail their victims into doing something (betray their country), not to pay money. ...

Okay. It's not always about money. But blackmail does always involve a threat: "Do thus and such or we will do this and that." Nobody here is threatening you with anything!!!

There are people who do not regard themselves as either male or female. That's what non-binary is.

Now this is important, and I know you are intelligent so if you refuse to see this then you're being disengenuous: transgender and non-binary are not synonymous! Just beause Martina Navratilova has trans friends who are male or female does not mean that everyone is either male or female.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #562 on: February 19, 2019, 10:36:34 PM »
Beef Wellington,

So what is non-binary gender?  Being ‘not something’ is not ‘being something.’

I’m not a lot of things.  I’m not a stamp collector, but that doesn’t make me a ‘non-stamp collector.’  My identity doesn’t depend on my being a ‘non-stamp collector.’

In Perth Australia, most people support one of the two local AFL clubs, the Eagles or the Dockers, so it’s binary.  Perth people are either Eagles supporters or Dockers supporters.   But there is a small minority of Perth people who are neither.  But they’re not ‘non-binary AFL football supporters.’  They either don’t like the game, or they support other teams.  Whatever.

Yes, you are a non-stamp collector. You probably just don't care enough to tell the people around you. The people who identify as non-binary, however, DO care, so they let people know. We, as a society, should respect these preferences accordingly. It's very basic stuff and this is clearly going nowhere. It was going nowhere 5 weeks ago.

So what am I?  I never married, never wanted children, I’ve been celibate voluntarily all my life.  Am I non-binary gender, if the definition of ‘non-binary gender’ is a ‘whatever’ too, entirely dependent on whether I define myself not to be something?  I’m also a non-nuclear physicist and a non-football player.  I identify myself as not understanding physics or being able to play football.  Should I be able to insist you recognise my preference to be a non-nuclear physicist?

I also loathe television.  I’m a non-television viewer.  It’s one of my core features.  Whenever someone at the local dog park mentions a program on the previous night’s viewing, should I get upset as being regarded as a television viewer and insist that my preference as a non-television viewer should be respected?
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #563 on: February 19, 2019, 10:49:12 PM »
So what am I?  I never married, never wanted children, I’ve been celibate voluntarily all my life.

What has any of that got to do with your gender?
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #564 on: February 19, 2019, 10:50:15 PM »
Well, why don’t you take it up with Martina Navratilova?  She’s a female homosexual athlete and tennis player with a transsexual friend and coach, who quite happily used ‘he’ and ‘she’ to describe transsexual people.

And she probably asked first. It's true - many transsexual people do use definite masculine or feminine pronouns. The danger is in assuming that you know without asking.

The choice of 3rd person singular pronoun seems to be a matter of personal choice, and is a ‘whatever.’  I’ll ask you.  I get the idea of transgender.  But what is non-binary gender?  It just seems to be a ‘whatever’ too.  A condition without a definition isn’t a condition, it’s a non-condition.

At the risk of repeating myself,



Nonbinary gender means that you are of a gender that is not male, and not female. You are a third gender. Maybe a fourth, or a fifth. If you are not gendered at all, that's agender or genderless. And yes, there are people who identify as agender.

And about "whatever" and lumping groups of people into a generic "other" category, I will link to this academic dissertation in the form of a five-part webcomic. I know you won't read it, but you really should. You really really should. The first is an introduction.

Notice
Other One
Other Two
Other Three
Other Four
Other Five

In fact, this is a good opportunity for me to re-read that too, because it is important and I need a refresher.

As with all of your stuff, I’ve read it.  As with all of your stuff, it’s crap.

It’s absolutely standard nowadays on forms to have a box with ‘I’d prefer not to say’ in addition to ‘male’ and ‘female.’  It’s also mandatory, apparently, to have a mobile phone.  I put in motion an attempt to upgrade flights to and from Santiago from Perth using frequent flier points (of which I have tonnes), but I had to provide a mobile phone number in case they send me an SMS.  I just made up one 0418123456, and it accepted it.

I’ll ask you.  I never married, never had the desire to have children, have been voluntarily celibate my entire life, and I regard gender as irrelevant.  Am I non-binary gender or a transphobic bigot?
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #565 on: February 19, 2019, 11:05:13 PM »
So what am I?  I never married, never wanted children, I’ve been celibate voluntarily all my life.

What has any of that got to do with your gender?

Everything.  I might as well be genderless.  Whenever anyone asks me about my wife or children, I answer that I never married, which then almost always leads to the inevitable suspicion...  but I identify as male and a (rather disinterested) heterosexual.  I could identify as being of non-binary gender, it would have solved many misunderstandings over the past decades, but I don’t.  Non-binary gender just seems to be a ‘whatever,’ a matter of personal choice.  And the preferred 3rd person singular pronoun also seems to be a matter of choice, which I’m obliged not to follow.  A person might have the preference to be described as a genius or highly talented, in addition to being referred to as ‘they.’  But I’m not obliged to describe them as a genius or highly talented.  But I’m also not allowed to describe them as clumsy klutzes (notice I’m using the ‘singular they’ because I’m not referring to a ‘single specified person of readily identifiable gender’), in the same way that I’m not obliged to use ‘they’, but are allowed to use some other formulation that doesn’t include either ‘he’ or ‘she.’
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #566 on: February 20, 2019, 12:12:11 AM »
I identify as male

Then you are male. The end.
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Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #567 on: February 20, 2019, 12:17:27 AM »
Should I be able to insist you recognise my preference to be a non-nuclear physicist?

If that particular subject is as important to you as someone else's gender is to them, yes.

Whenever someone at the local dog park mentions a program on the previous night’s viewing, should I get upset as being regarded as a television viewer and insist that my preference as a non-television viewer should be respected?

Again, if it's that important to you, then yes. Making a scene about it would be a bit much but if you truly valued your sans-television identity you should absolutely be able to express it. What is it that's so hard to understand and/or accept about all of this?
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #568 on: February 20, 2019, 12:21:35 AM »
As with all of your stuff, I’ve read it.  As with all of your stuff, it’s crap.

Ah, outright denial of evidence. That's refreshing. I haven't heard that since back when I used to debate creationists.

This conversation is not bringing me joy. I think I'll just go back to shouting WRONG! in your face when you say egregiously stupid things.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #700
« Reply #569 on: February 20, 2019, 12:44:40 AM »
As with all of your stuff, I’ve read it.  As with all of your stuff, it’s crap.

Ah, outright denial of evidence. That's refreshing. I haven't heard that since back when I used to debate creationists.

This conversation is not bringing me joy. I think I'll just go back to shouting WRONG! in your face when you say egregiously stupid things.

It’s just cartoons, which is just about the level of your reasoning.  Non-binary gender is a non-condition without definition and a matter of personal choice.

I can get transgender.  It’s a real condition with a definition.

You didn’t comment on Martina Navratilova with a transgender friend who referred to her transgender competitors with ‘he’ and ‘she’ with not a ‘they’ in sight.

Insisting on ‘they’ as the default 3rd person singular pronoun is just overreach.
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