Author Topic: The right to compete?  (Read 2899 times)

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Offline seamas

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2018, 05:17:26 PM »
So to maintain a business that makes money for the owners,

It makes money for the owners, the logo designers, the concession workers, the athletes, the TV station, the uniform manufacturers, the vendors the people who own the parking garage, the people who own restaurants in the area of the arena, the hotels and a significant number of other people.
It also makes MILLIONS of people happy because they like unscripted competitive entertainment.

I hate the idea that these people shouldn't make  money off of their talent because some people had bad memories of competition when they were children.

There's no such thing as denial.

Offline seamas

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2018, 05:19:07 PM »


Cooperation can be even more fun than competition;

For you and maybe some others.
Most people enjoy good competition. By and large it is a beneficial experience for those who enjoy it.
There's no such thing as denial.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2018, 05:21:54 PM »
Ignoring the fact that most people who engage in sports ENJOY the competition is a great way to bolster your argument, but it is still ignoring an important fact.

Do you feel the same about competitive chess? All board games?



The people who are good at it enjoy the competition. The rest of us are excoriated by them for our lack of athleticism.

The good of competition: the few who are good at it enjoy it.

The bad of competition: unnecessary injuries, the health effects on the masses who sit on the couch and just watch, and all the kids who get no exercise at all because of the hate they’ve been subjected to for not having the skills.

Chess is not a substitute for exercise. But if you want to argue against chess tournaments, I will not quarrel with you over it.
Daniel
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Offline seamas

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2018, 05:26:13 PM »
Ignoring the fact that most people who engage in sports ENJOY the competition is a great way to bolster your argument, but it is still ignoring an important fact.

Do you feel the same about competitive chess? All board games?



The people who are good at it enjoy the competition. The rest of us are excoriated by them for our lack of athleticism.


Oh the drama!

The good of competition: the few who are good at it enjoy it.


 Most people become good at it through hard work and practice. The "natural" is a minority. The bulk of the team members are there because they wanted to work for it.


The bad of competition: unnecessary injuries, the health effects on the masses who sit on the couch and just watch, and all the kids who get no exercise at all because of the hate they’ve been subjected to for not having the skills.

Please tell me what a necessary injury is.

Skills are something you obtain through practice, you aren't born with them.
There's no such thing as denial.

Offline RGU

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2018, 06:31:58 PM »
So to maintain a business that makes money for the owners, we encourage the vast majority of adults to be sedentary and pay to watch others play, and at the same time discourage those kids who need exercise the most from participating.

That’s a bad system.

My system deprives a few dozen or a hundred or so sports team owners of a way to make vast sums of money, deprives adults of an excuse to be sedentary, watching others play, and encourages everyone, kids and adults alike, to be active, and encourages the kids who are good at sports to welcome into their team the kids who are not. Because if there’s no winner, then having the klutz or the fat kid on your team doesn’t hurt you.

My system deprives a few athletes of a job which is dangerous and leaves most of them with injuries for the rest of their life, but provides them and more like them with much safer employment teaching kids to exercise safely while having fun.

In the USA
Golf - 25 Million people play it
Football - 9 Million people play it
Basketball - 30 Million people play it
Baseball/Softball - 30 Million people play it
Soccer - 14 Million people play it (240 million worldwide according to FIFA)
Hockey - 3 Million people play it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_in_the_United_States

Lets take all of those people and tell them, no don't play you sport. Just kick a ball back and forth because it is just as good.

The problem isn't sports - the problem is people who stop playing sports. People need to learn that you can't compete and lose and sit is OK. yes you try to win but too many parent come down on their kids for losing because they think they have the next super star in their house.
Yes there are problems, but it isn't the sport, it is the attitude of too many people. Your view jut swings the pendulum too far the other direction.
Everyone doesn't deserve a medal, and that is OK.

Three out of four American families with school-aged children have at least one playing an organized sport — a total of about 45 million kids. By age 15, as many as 80 percent of these youngsters have quit, according to the Open Access Journal of Sports Medicine.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2014/05/03/how-parents-are-ruining-youth-sports/vbRln8qYXkrrNFJcsuvNyM/story.html

Just because you had a bad experience and couldn't deal with it doesn't mean everyone should quit.
Competitiveness is good and is fair when you are in the same category as others of your ability (bringing it back tot topic)

Offline daniel1948

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2018, 07:39:58 PM »
@seamas: an UNnecessary injury, in the context of sports, is one that would not have happened if people weren’t brainwashed by the competitive mindset into believing that winning a point was so important that it’s worth crippling themselves for life.

@RGU: I’m not telling people not to play sports. I’m saying that we should not institutionalize competition to the extent that no other physical activities are available in schools, and we should not make heroes out of Olympic gold-medalists or professional ball players.
Daniel
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2018, 08:33:03 PM »
Ignoring the fact that most people who engage in sports ENJOY the competition is a great way to bolster your argument, but it is still ignoring an important fact.

Do you feel the same about competitive chess? All board games?



The people who are good at it enjoy the competition. The rest of us are excoriated by them for our lack of athleticism.


Oh the drama!

Please take a look at my previous posts in this thread. I was relentlessly and continuously verbally bullied throughout high school because I wasn't good at sport. Not a single day went by when someone said something hurtful. I came to hate everyone who was good at sport, and to hate the sport because of it. I withdrew into books and roleplaying games and a small circle of similarly-inclined friends and went about my day trying desperately to not call attention to myself. "Excoriated" is a mild word.

I'm a lot older now and over the course of another thirty years I've come to understand that not all sport is inherently hateful, but I'm still a fat introvert with social anxiety. What I went through during my school years because I wasn't good at sport has affected my whole life.
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Online Tassie Dave

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2018, 01:51:12 AM »
Sport isn't for everyone, but it gives some of us enormous joy. I have played, taught children to play sport and spectated sport of some description my entire life.

2014, 15 & 16 were the worst 3 years of my life for various personal reasons. Several close family deaths, relationship breakdown, job loss and difficulty getting back into the workforce, health issues etc.
Watching my sports teams compete (and win) gave me happiness at times that nothing else could.

I'm not afraid to admit that when my AFL side (Richmond) won the Premiership in 2017 I cried. Sport can be that emotional.

I get that a few of you don't get how important sport can be to us rabid fans. Sport isn't a matter of life and death. It's more important than that.  ;) To paraphrase a famous sporting quote.

I don't know how we get obese kids and sedentary adults to exercise more and eat less, but getting rid of competitive sport is not the answer.

Online arthwollipot

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2018, 02:36:20 AM »
Personally, I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport and more spent on school sports programs.
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Online Tassie Dave

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2018, 03:21:31 AM »
Personally, I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport and more spent on school sports programs.

It's not an either/or choice, we can have both.

Many professional sporting bodies put a lot of money back into junior sport and school sports. The AFL and Cricket Australia pour millions into Australian schools and local amateur competitions (male and female)

I would be happy to have more of my tax dollar go back into school sports and programs to fight childhood obesity.

Offline RGU

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2018, 12:01:36 PM »
Personally, I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport and more spent on school sports programs.

By who? Are you talking govt money (taxes) or private money?

Offline The Latinist

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2018, 12:31:04 PM »
I don't think this is as easy as some people make it out to be.  It's not simply a matter of fairness in sport versus fairness in society because fairness in sport is essential to fairness in society.  There are lifelong benefits to sports--especially through high school-- that it is vital to protect.  Sports build skills of teamwork and determination as well as physical fitness, and they provide opportunities for success to young people who do not excel in other areas. It is in recognition of this that Title IX was created to guarantee sporting opportunities to girls, and I believe it has had a great leveling influence in society that I do not think we can lightly toss aside.

Do I know the answer? Not at all. A complex and difficult question often requires a difficult solution, a fact with which I think we're seeing the sporting world genuinely struggle. But I don't think we come closer to a solution by pretending that it doesn't matter.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Online arthwollipot

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2018, 05:21:49 PM »
Personally, I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport and more spent on school sports programs.

It's not an either/or choice, we can have both.

Okay, let me rephrase. I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport.

By who? Are you talking govt money (taxes) or private money?

By everybody.
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Offline RGU

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2018, 06:58:51 PM »
Personally, I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport and more spent on school sports programs.

It's not an either/or choice, we can have both.

Okay, let me rephrase. I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport.

By who? Are you talking govt money (taxes) or private money?

By everybody.

OK, why?
What is an acceptable amount of "less" in your opinion?
I assume you are including all sports from bowling to football to NASCAR to tennis and so on?
How many less billions would you like and what will all those lost jobs go to?
How do you regain the lost interest in sports when you have less professionals influencing young people?

I am just curious as to how you support your opinion and what the reasonable alternative is?

Online arthwollipot

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2018, 07:13:53 PM »
Personally, I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport and more spent on school sports programs.

It's not an either/or choice, we can have both.

Okay, let me rephrase. I'd like to see less money spent on professional sport.

By who? Are you talking govt money (taxes) or private money?

By everybody.

OK, why?
What is an acceptable amount of "less" in your opinion?
I assume you are including all sports from bowling to football to NASCAR to tennis and so on?
How many less billions would you like and what will all those lost jobs go to?
How do you regain the lost interest in sports when you have less professionals influencing young people?

I am just curious as to how you support your opinion and what the reasonable alternative is?

You think I've got a whole business plan worked out? I expressed a general opinion. You don't have to jump down my throat about it.

See, this is what we non-sporty people are subjected to every fucking day of our lives.
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