Author Topic: The right to compete?  (Read 2910 times)

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Offline RGU

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The right to compete?
« on: December 17, 2018, 01:06:49 PM »
I just read the article below and am trying to parse out what I think/feel about it?
I have no issue with transgender people as I support whatever they feel is best for themselves, however this situation also affects others as well.
The best I could come up with was to eliminate the M/F categories in sports and just have them all compete together.
That almost seems fair, but is it really? With no WNBA, women would have to compete with men in the NBA. Would it be better to just let people compete in whatever they want to?
But what effect would this have, could you end up with a real life "Juwanna Mann"?

What are your thoughts?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2810857-andraya-yearwood-knows-she-has-the-right-to-compete

Online Harry Black

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 02:15:34 PM »
I think sports are beneficial for health so I think they should be generally encouraged. To that end, I think mixing mens and womens categories would have a negative effect on participation and just result in other non cis male organisations breaking off.
I also think that developing a society where people are treated equally and with dignity is far more important than who wins a race.
Transphobic sore losers need to get over it and stop pretending that this is the end of cis female competitiveness.
Sports just arent that important.

Online Tassie Dave

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 02:26:36 PM »
It is a complex situation. I am pro-transgender rights, but sport does bring up some difficult problems.

It some situations (and some sports) it can give transgender athletes an unfair advantage.

Sports just arent that important.

For some of us, sport is huge. For "most" aussies, it's an obsession  ;)

I do believe most transgender athletes can compete. They will have to be judged on a case by case situation.






Online Harry Black

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 02:31:00 PM »
For most people in general its an obsession.

But if they put it ahead of or comparable to peoples equality then their values would be pretty ugly.

"Sorry you dont get to be treated with dignity or as a valid person, but seeing people win shit just makes me too hapoy to care!"
Is not a thing I can see many people getting behind unless they do genuinely dislike trans people.

Offline RGU

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 03:12:27 PM »
I think sports are beneficial for health so I think they should be generally encouraged. To that end, I think mixing mens and womens categories would have a negative effect on participation and just result in other non cis male organisations breaking off.
I also think that developing a society where people are treated equally and with dignity is far more important than who wins a race.
Transphobic sore losers need to get over it and stop pretending that this is the end of cis female competitiveness.
Sports just arent that important.

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say, beyond you think sports are not important.
Mixing men's and women's categories are bad because men will split off and make more male organizations. But, it doesn't matter who wins and everyone should be treated equally. And if you disagree you are transphobic?

Why is someone who thinks a playing field should be even is Transphobic?
Does that mean if you think men and women should be separate, as you stated above, then that person is Cisphobic? or maybe just Femalephobic?

This isn't about a race. It is about all sports from Table Tennis, to MMA, to the Olympics, to MLB, etc...
Some sports have found gender crossovers possible like NASCAR (not that everyone considers it a sport) and others are so split up that you cannot wrestle a person of the same sex 15 lbs heavier than you.

You may not care about sports, but it in 2016, the North American sports market had a value of about 67.29 billion U.S. dollars (who knows what worldwide). People care. It is how many make a living, playing, supporting players, designing equipment and clothing. Obtaining scholarships or making enough money to bring themselves and their families up out of poverty.

All of this make it a difficult matter. Much more difficult than, it isn't a big deal and get over it or you hate trans people.

Online amysrevenge

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 03:22:12 PM »
I believe the choice as presented is "make society fair and if that makes sports less fair sometimes, so be it" as directly opposed to "make sports fair, and if that makes society less fair sometimes, so be it".
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Offline RGU

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2018, 03:41:35 PM »
I believe the choice as presented is "make society fair and if that makes sports less fair sometimes, so be it" as directly opposed to "make sports fair, and if that makes society less fair sometimes, so be it".

That make's sense - so what is fair and who determines it?
Isn't making sports fair (almost) always going to make society less fair and vice versa?

men and women are equal - fair in Society
men and women are equal - unfair in Boxing
disabled and non-disabled are equal - fair in Society
disabled and non-disabled are equal - unfair in the Olympics
etc.

Online Harry Black

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2018, 03:48:42 PM »
I believe the choice as presented is "make society fair and if that makes sports less fair sometimes, so be it" as directly opposed to "make sports fair, and if that makes society less fair sometimes, so be it".
Exactly.
My sympathy is with the people who are oppressed, reviled and driven to suicide for just existing. Not the people who are scared of coming second to them.

That includes in table tennis, MMA etc.
We have waited this long to find a trans athlete who is kicking ass (at a high school level!)  I really dont think this warrants interventions that will take away the little joy some trans folks may have in their lives.

Edit- Oh great. A bunch of false equivelancies.
Im out.

Online daniel1948

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 06:51:59 PM »
I’ve expressed my feelings about this before: Competition is unhealthy and destructive. Physical activity is good and should be encouraged. Competitive sports tend to discourage the weak and uncoordinated from participating, as happened with me. We need non-competitive sports. Then it doesn’t matter what your gender is or what reproductive organs you were born with or have now. Right now, the people who need physical activity the most are discouraged or even barred from playing because with the emphasis on winning, nobody wants them on their team. As happened to me. I’m uncoordinated and I’m not strong. I was a fat kid. Nobody wanted me on their team, and in reaction I had contempt for jocks. Until I was 30 I excoriated all physical activity because of the way I was treated, which in turn was because of competition. Fuck competition. Give everybody an opportunity for non-competitive exercise where they’ll be welcomed.

I’m currently most enthusiastic about paddling. (Canoes and kayaks.) There are races (bad idea) and there’s recreational paddling. The races have divisions based on age and gender, and I have no idea how the governing agencies handle our new understanding of gender. But for recreational paddling, anybody that wants to paddle is welcome in the boat. Doesn’t matter if you are male or female, cis or trans, or something else. Doesn’t matter if you are gay or straight. Doesn’t matter what color your skin is. Doesn’t even matter what language you speak because most of the commands are given in Hawaiian.

We need more games and events where there’s no score-keeping or time keeping. Yesterday there was a big “jungle rules” paddling race. Anything that floats was welcome. No timekeeping, no winners or losers. Turn around before the marker buoy if you feel like it. It was so much fun. My canoe was basically last and nobody in the canoe cared. We all had fun.

There’s no health benefit to sitting on your couch watching other people play sports on TV.
Daniel
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 07:04:58 PM »
Your experience, Daniel, mirrors mine, perhaps possibly excepting (or rather you didn't mention this aspect) that I was relentlessly bullied throughout high school for being bad at sports.
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 07:03:25 PM »
(double post due to network shenanigans)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 07:09:14 PM by arthwollipot »
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Online daniel1948

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2018, 07:35:08 PM »
Your experience, Daniel, mirrors mine, perhaps possibly excepting (or rather you didn't mention this aspect) that I was relentlessly bullied throughout high school for being bad at sports.

Surprisingly, I wasn’t bullied very much at all. Maybe because I didn’t care what anybody else thought about me. And maybe because I was good at avoiding confrontations. I was insulted a lot but just ignored it. I have no idea why I was never physically assaulted.
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2018, 08:18:19 PM »
Your experience, Daniel, mirrors mine, perhaps possibly excepting (or rather you didn't mention this aspect) that I was relentlessly bullied throughout high school for being bad at sports.

Surprisingly, I wasn’t bullied very much at all. Maybe because I didn’t care what anybody else thought about me. And maybe because I was good at avoiding confrontations. I was insulted a lot but just ignored it. I have no idea why I was never physically assaulted.

I was never actually physically beaten up (came close once but I grovelled adequately), but I was the subject of derision and insults and the butt of all the meanness that young teenagers can muster.
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Online Tassie Dave

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 12:57:20 AM »
I am all for removing all discrimination. LGBTI people should have exactly the same rights as everyone else.

Sport is a hard one though as this issue only affects women's sports. There is no problem with transgender sportspeople competing in men's sport.

I also would say that transgender sportspeople would be ok to compete in most female's sports, but there will be a few exceptions. Mostly in power sports

It wouldn't be fair for women to compete with transgender sports people who have a muscle mass that was built while they were still male (There are real world examples of this happening) or to compete with a transgender sportsperson with a high testosterone level.

We can't make it fair for one group by discriminating against another group.

Each case has to be judged on individually. A one rule for all can't work and be fair for everyone.

Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: The right to compete?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2018, 09:13:50 AM »
Sports are, almost by definition, the selection of particular physical attributes and segmenting society based on them. They didn't have the big national spelling bees when I was a child, but I would have competed quite well on that field. Football (of any variety), no.

The history of human progress has been in finding ways in which a relatively-weak species could dominate its ecological niche by accommodation. Had humans not invented eyeglasses, I would have likely been relegated to a life of poverty.

I have gone from a mild interest in some sports (baseball and college basketball) to absolutely zero interest today. It is the one section of the Sunday newspaper that I do not read. IMHO life is better without it.

I tend to see most sex-related differences, so much hashed over in societal conversation, as overlapping normal curves on sex-related characteristics for XX and XY people (not to mention the other combinations). While the adult XX height curve has a mean of less than the XY adult height curve, there is still huge overlap, meaning millions of women are taller than millions of men. You can even take that logic to breast size. There is considerable overlap of the size curves, but for some reason, we make a big deal about this as being a male-female thing.
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