Author Topic: Episode #703  (Read 1854 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2249
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2018, 01:00:04 AM »
"Just following orders" is not a defense when you are an active participant in war crimes.

No, it’s not a defence.  But in war crime trials, the leaders giving the orders were put on trial, and often executed.  Bush, Blair and Howard should have been put on trial for being mass murderers.

Of course, they should all be prosecuted, so that it can be determined who all was at fault and needs to serve various sentences for their crimes and degrees of responsibility.

At least there are term limits for presidents. They can't go back to their job, or easily work in a different department, as their permanent job description is former president. But as long as the people and the systems they used for war crimes persist, they're there ready to be used by future administrations for the same purpose.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 01:06:58 AM by 2397 »

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1430
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2018, 01:14:20 AM »
"Just following orders" is not a defense when you are an active participant in war crimes.

No, it’s not a defence.  But in war crime trials, the leaders giving the orders were put on trial, and often executed.  Bush, Blair and Howard should have been put on trial for being mass murderers.

Of course, they should all be prosecuted, so that it can be determined who all was at fault and needs to serve various sentences for their crimes and degrees of responsibility.

At least there are term limits for presidents. They can't go back to their job, or easily work in a different department, as their permanent job description is former president. But as long as the people and the systems they used for war crimes persist, they're there ready to be used by future administrations for the same purpose.

I probably wouldn’t disagree too much with that.  But at least with the CIA the people ordering whatever war crimes might have been committed were (and are) political appointees with congressional confirmation and ongoing congressional committee oversight.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline Tassie Dave

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2018, 02:20:18 AM »
"Just following orders" is not a defense when you are an active participant in war crimes.

No, it’s not a defence.  But in war crime trials, the leaders giving the orders were put on trial, and often executed.  Bush, Blair and Howard should have been put on trial for being mass murderers.

Howard was our worst PM ever and on the side of politics I abhor, but War Criminal. Really?  ???

Sending troops into a war zone is not a crime, and you do realise how our politics work? Our PM does not have executive powers like the US President.
The government sends our troops into war.

Whether we should have been in any of these wars is another thing and I do think war crimes were committed to start at least one of those wars.


Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1430
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2018, 02:57:08 AM »
"Just following orders" is not a defense when you are an active participant in war crimes.

No, it’s not a defence.  But in war crime trials, the leaders giving the orders were put on trial, and often executed.  Bush, Blair and Howard should have been put on trial for being mass murderers.

Howard was our worst PM ever and on the side of politics I abhor, but War Criminal. Really?  ???

Sending troops into a war zone is not a crime, and you do realise how our politics work? Our PM does not have executive powers like the US President.
The government sends our troops into war.

Whether we should have been in any of these wars is another thing and I do think war crimes were committed to start at least one of those wars.

Admittedly, it’s hyperbole.  But still the same, he wasn’t called to account.  And it wasn’t a war until he committed our troops.  It was a war we supported and encouraged.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline daniel1948

  • Hasn't
  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7923
  • Cat Lovers Against the Bomb
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2018, 10:09:12 AM »
We find out 30 or 40 years later what the CIA does. To imagine that it’s any better now than it was at the time of the most recent revelations, is the height of credulity. There may indeed be a law or rule that the CIA is not allowed to lie to an American citizen in response to a direct question, and there’s definitely a law or rule that the CIA is not allowed to operate within the country, but only the most credulous, unskeptical person would believe they follow either of those rules. Certainly they go to great lengths to avoid being caught, but their history gives us no reason to believe that they have changed; their history gives us no reason to believe they are obeying these rules now when they’ve never obeyed them in the past.

The police lie to citizens. The FBI lie to citizens. The U.S. Marshals lie to citizens. And the Supreme Court has ruled that it is legal for them to do so. It’s laughable that the rogues believe that the CIA doesn’t lie to citizens. And the only push-back was Cara’s tongue-in-cheek comment that part of her doesn’t believe anything they were told.

The CIA has a history of murder, of helping to overthrow democratically elected governments, of aiding dictators and torturers. “We don’t do that anymore” is not a credible statement. The only true thing they said is that they are professional liars.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline GodHead

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 70
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2018, 11:12:47 AM »
The only true thing they said is that they are professional liars.

Well, if there's one thing I've always wanted the SGU to be associated with, it's professional liars!

Offline DevoutCatalyst

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2018, 11:19:09 AM »
Well, if there's one thing I've always wanted the SGU to be associated with, it's professional liars!

The foam mattress company?

Offline Friendly Angel

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4351
  • Post count reset to zero in both forum apocalypses
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2018, 01:11:52 PM »
That SoF reveal bit went on way too long.
Amend and resubmit.

Offline Skepmic

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2018, 04:07:22 PM »
The bit about the CIA visit was maybe the most unskeptical thing I've heard on the SGU to date. That they could get so excited about a trip to self-professed professional liars baffles me mightily. Not a great look for skeptics.

Well, if there's one thing I've always wanted the SGU to be associated with, it's professional liars!

The foam mattress company?

Burn!

Offline Tassie Dave

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2018, 05:01:42 PM »
The bit about the CIA visit was maybe the most unskeptical thing I've heard on the SGU to date. That they could get so excited about a trip to self-professed professional liars baffles me mightily. Not a great look for skeptics.

How was it unskeptical? They acknowledge that they were being told what the CIA wanted them to hear and that they were getting a very censored view of the truth.
Yes, they were giddy with excitement. They are human and were getting a guided tour of spy central FFS  ;)

Yes a few of them showed hints of non-critical thinking. Jay bought the Silent helicopter a bit too easily  ::)

Who would turn down a free tour of the CIA/FBI/NSA/MI5/MI6/Interpol/FSB/MSS and also not take the swag?  ;) Unless that free tour is by men in black insisting you accompany them to their HQ.

It would be an impressive place to visit.

Offline JohnM

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2018, 05:18:30 PM »
The bit about the CIA visit was maybe the most unskeptical thing I've heard on the SGU to date. That they could get so excited about a trip to self-professed professional liars baffles me mightily. Not a great look for skeptics.

How was it unskeptical? They acknowledge that they were being told what the CIA wanted them to hear and that they were getting a very censored view of the truth.
Yes, they were giddy with excitement. They are human and were getting a guided tour of spy central FFS  ;)

Yes a few of them showed hints of non-critical thinking. Jay bought the Silent helicopter a bit too easily  ::)

Who would turn down a free tour of the CIA/FBI/NSA/MI5/MI6/Interpol/FSB/MSS and also not take the swag?  ;) Unless that free tour is by men in black insisting you accompany them to their HQ.

It would be an impressive place to visit.

I don't think there was anything wrong with visiting, being excited about it and having an enjoyable time while there. If anything that's a good thing to learn more about their processes. But the talk up which happened maybe weeks or months later? There was no need to be that giddy. Plenty of time for reflection and critical thinking to take place while keeping cool heads in the write-up. Hence Steve's intervention. I'm not that surprised by Even, Jay or Bob but Cara and Steve are professionals and I would expect better from them.

It was also the way they were so excited about working with them, don't they fear losing their much-vaunted independence?

Offline Tassie Dave

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2018, 05:40:18 PM »
It was also the way they were so excited about working with them, don't they fear losing their much-vaunted independence?

I agree. A collaboration would not be a good look for the SGU.

Offline Alex Garner

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 32
    • http://www.garner.cx
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2018, 07:17:40 PM »
That SoF reveal bit went on way too long.

If only there was a way to quickly* fast-forward it!

*(Yes - I'm winding you up!  ;) )

Offline daniel1948

  • Hasn't
  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7923
  • Cat Lovers Against the Bomb
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2018, 08:03:46 PM »
Who would turn down a free tour of the CIA/FBI/NSA/MI5/MI6/Interpol/FSB/MSS and also not take the swag? 

Me. I would turn it down faster than you could say “Shaken, not stirred.” I have no interest in shmoozing with people whose job is finding clandestine ways to ship guns to bloodthirsty dictators, overthrowing democratically elected governments, assassinating leaders who won’t sell out their people to U.S. corporations, training death squads in methods of torture, and every other sort of political violence and chicanery. And I certainly would not help them improve their methods unless they paid me a fuck of a lot more than they ever would. (Every man has his price. Mine is a hundred million dollars.)
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8646
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Episode #703
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2018, 10:08:48 PM »
The CIA has a history of murder, of helping to overthrow democratically elected governments, of aiding dictators and torturers. “We don’t do that anymore” is not a credible statement. The only true thing they said is that they are professional liars.

And our own recently outed torture program, about which we had a thread.

A couple fun excerpts:




They'd be way cooler without the weird butt stuff and unqualified torturers.
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?