Author Topic: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?  (Read 2968 times)

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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2019, 01:02:31 PM »
I have found that the libertarian denial is usually resistance to the idea that collective action must be taken.

I guess that's where the rubber meets the road for libertarians. They really are a priori opposed to the idea that anything beyond defense and police might require, or even benefit from, collective action. I guess that's why they switch between those options. Nope, the climate is not warming. Ok, it's warming, but humans are not responsible. It's warming, but it's not going to be so bad. Whatever it takes to maintain the desired conclusion that collective action is not necessary.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2019, 01:03:52 PM »
Probably a response to the ill-informed talking points about "doing your part" to make a difference. To a conspiracist, this sounds like a ploy to get the lemmings to voluntarily lower their living standards. But that isn't how the economy works anyways. Or, conversely, the realization that you don't have that much control over the effect of your economic activity after a level of indirection or two.

Which is actually a good argument against libertarianism, in favor of using governmental authority to correct systemic problems that individuals and markets can't otherwise address on their own.

I agree. I support some libertarian ideals and ideas, but not others. So I would not consider myself a libertarian.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 01:59:48 PM by Quetzalcoatl »
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2019, 02:03:27 PM »
I think the fact that they are libertarians has nothing to do with the fact they are also climate change deniers and you should argue with them the same as you would any science deniers.

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Offline John Albert

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2019, 08:25:04 PM »
Probably a response to the ill-informed talking points about "doing your part" to make a difference. To a conspiracist, this sounds like a ploy to get the lemmings to voluntarily lower their living standards. But that isn't how the economy works anyways. Or, conversely, the realization that you don't have that much control over the effect of your economic activity after a level of indirection or two.

Which is actually a good argument against libertarianism, in favor of using governmental authority to correct systemic problems that individuals and markets can't otherwise address on their own.

I agree. I support some libertarian ideals and ideas, but not others. So I would not consider myself a libertarian.

I agree with most libertarian ideals about the rights and liberties of individuals, so long as they don't create a public hazard or infringe on the rights of others. But the libertarians' regressive ideas about economics and civics are a total and complete deal-breaker as far as I'm concerned.


I think the fact that they are libertarians has nothing to do with the fact they are also climate change deniers and you should argue with them the same as you would any science deniers.

I think the difference is that some libertarian AGW deniers might tend to employ certain kinds of arguments particular to their political leanings.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 08:59:22 PM by John Albert »

Offline Billzbub

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2019, 04:14:02 PM »
I predict that it will be very difficult to get past the denialist sentiment that all climate science is done by scientists who rely on global warming for their pay checks.  If they show that global warming isn't happening, then their grants will dry up, so they "adjust" all the data to make it seem like the planet is warming when it is not.  To me, this is the trickiest denialist tactic to counter because it seems so plausible to them and cannot easily be countered by providing more information about the scientific consensus.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2019, 05:55:43 PM »
I predict that it will be very difficult to get past the denialist sentiment that all climate science is done by scientists who rely on global warming for their pay checks.  If they show that global warming isn't happening, then their grants will dry up, so they "adjust" all the data to make it seem like the planet is warming when it is not.  To me, this is the trickiest denialist tactic to counter because it seems so plausible to them and cannot easily be countered by providing more information about the scientific consensus.

It's tied into the same old anti-intellectual far right conspiracy theory that regards all of academia as a network of Big Government-subsidized liberal think tanks created to bolster the Liberal Agenda, a.k.a "Destroying America." 

Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 09:32:31 AM »
I predict that it will be very difficult to get past the denialist sentiment that all climate science is done by scientists who rely on global warming for their pay checks.  If they show that global warming isn't happening, then their grants will dry up, so they "adjust" all the data to make it seem like the planet is warming when it is not.  To me, this is the trickiest denialist tactic to counter because it seems so plausible to them and cannot easily be countered by providing more information about the scientific consensus.

It's tied into the same old anti-intellectual far right conspiracy theory that regards all of academia as a network of Big Government-subsidized liberal think tanks created to bolster the Liberal Agenda, a.k.a "Destroying America."

There is also innumeracy here. The difference between "small conspiracy" (e.g., two guys plotting) and "grand conspiracy" (every climate scientist plotting) is the factorial increase in relationships where you have to maintain "trust against a lie." One break in the chain and the conspiracy falls apart. This is why attempts at grand conspiracy eventually fail, or (more commonly) never were in the first place.
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 11:49:00 AM »
Probably a response to the ill-informed talking points about "doing your part" to make a difference. To a conspiracist, this sounds like a ploy to get the lemmings to voluntarily lower their living standards. But that isn't how the economy works anyways. Or, conversely, the realization that you don't have that much control over the effect of your economic activity after a level of indirection or two.

Which is actually a good argument against libertarianism, in favor of using governmental authority to correct systemic problems that individuals and markets can't otherwise address on their own.

I agree. I support some libertarian ideals and ideas, but not others. So I would not consider myself a libertarian.
Funny, that's why I call myself a libertarian. Really, its because I generally support the ideology while not really supporting a lot of the specific ideas. 

There is a legit argument to be had over what should and can be done regarding global warming there is not a legitimate argument over whether its happening nor whether human activity is the driving factor.  I think there was some debate on that matter say, 15 to 30 years ago.  To be generous, 10 years ago.  Anyrate, I still think the only reason to debate a denier is to sway the audience, the deniers aren't going to listen. 

Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 12:20:57 PM »
Thus the fatal flaw of libertarianism, which is that in every case I have seen, it is selective toward those things that "I" want to be libertarian about while having no problem restricting "your" rights. Best example is Rand Paul, who characterizes himself as libertarian while opposing women's rights to liberty over their own bodies.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2019, 12:32:09 PM »
It falls short for me, too.  Like, I was raised right-wing.

I went from Republican to Libertarian because Political Conservatism is ridiculous.

I went from Libertarian to DIY (mostly left-leaning) because Libertarianism is pointlessly constraining.  It's fully adequate if you're two fur traders standing in the middle of the woods in the 1600s exchanging furs, though.

(
These days I tend to think we need some kind of 'systems' framework.  View the world as a holistic system of systems.  Focus on two aspects of the global system:
  • System function in relation to human flourishing (emphasis on average person)
  • System stability/sustainable (pick some metrics and timeframes that make sense)
)
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2019, 02:23:49 PM »
Thus the fatal flaw of libertarianism, which is that in every case I have seen, it is selective toward those things that "I" want to be libertarian about while having no problem restricting "your" rights. Best example is Rand Paul, who characterizes himself as libertarian while opposing women's rights to liberty over their own bodies.
IMHO, this is true of every political ideology and especially parties.  To single out libertarians as not always living up to their ideals, seems odd. 

Offline Harry Black

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2019, 02:47:15 PM »
What confuses me is that libertarianism seems to be more prescriptive of the method that we use to achieve certain goals, but it provides no real cohesive framework as to what those goals should be.
I believe this is why we see libertarians so far spread along the left/right spectrum.
If all you agree about is that you kind of like a particular philosophical approach to solving problems, but agree that it is not appropriate to all or even most problems (and disagree so widely among the group as to which problems those are), then perhaps you should look at a political movement with a bit more meat on it and just quietly rejoice whenever the best answer to a given problem turns out to be the one that gives you good feels?

I really am a big believer in going issue by issue with a strong feel for where you want society to go and then just looking up to see where you happen to have ended up label wise.

The nebulous idea of 'more freedom' seems really pointless because there are other philosophies that will give you the specific kinds of freedoms you may want anyway but may or may not find that legislation and regulation is the best way to get it for you.

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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2019, 03:27:22 PM »
I think libertarianism is perfectly logical. Its defining feature is the non-aggression principle. But I dont think such a simple formula is enough to build a society, or can be absolute. What about children? What about people wanting to commit suicide?

Like you Harry Black, I am also a supporter of judging each issue individually.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2019, 03:41:35 PM »
My big break with Libertarianism was a 50:50 split between their views on economics and on government.

'Freedom' is sufficiently economic that it requires minding the average person's well being.  And the level of organization and coercion required is (de facto) a state.  Accept either of these and you're mutually exclusive with mainstream American Libertarianism. 

The economic logic of scrip, slavery, irresponsible waste disposal, etc. is impeccable.  It's as impeccable today as it was in our history.  It's as impeccable here as it in the developing world.

Companies which lobby against labor activism here simply murder activists in the developing world.  Companies which lobby against environmental activism here simply murder them in the developing world.

Shit like that. 
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 03:43:47 PM »
This sounds to me like holding libertarians to a higher standard than others.  A bit like saying, I'm not a progressive because I don't think more government interference is always the right answer.  I like to think approach each issue individually but tend to come at from a default of, more freedom is probably better.  Sure, there are idealogues but every ideology has idealogues and practical types. 

Granted, I judge commies as basically all being ideologues so there's that.

My big break with Libertarianism was a 50:50 split between their views on economics and on government.

'Freedom' is sufficiently economic that it requires minding the average person's well being.  And the level of organization and coercion required is (de facto) a state.  Accept either of these and you're mutually exclusive with mainstream American Libertarianism. 

The economic logic of scrip, slavery, irresponsible waste disposal, etc. is impeccable.  It's as impeccable today as it was in our history.  It's as impeccable here as it in the developing world.

Companies which lobby against labor activism here simply murder activists in the developing world.  Companies which lobby against environmental activism here simply murder them in the developing world.

Shit like that. 
I have no idea what any of this means.  I suspect its a bit of a strawman though.  You can of course find libertarians who argue for a stateless society, I don not think they would be considered the mainstream of American libertarianism though. 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 03:46:07 PM by Ah.hell »

 

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