Author Topic: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?  (Read 3259 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2019, 06:35:54 AM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.

Oh god no. Please, no.

You don’t ‘win’ an argument by making strawman arguments.  You don’t ‘win’ arguments by ascribing more claims to a person who is arguing something different to what you’re arguing.

To give a recent example.  I argued that ‘they’ should not be used to refer to single identified persons of readily ascertainable gender, and that if it’s considered desirable to have a nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  And you stated that you use the ‘singular they’ so as not to have to offend someone who’d prefer ‘he’ or ‘she’ not to be used, eventually mentioning transgender and non-binary gender persons.

My point is that the overwhelming majority of people want to be referred to as either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  Using ‘they’ just in case will offend more people than you’ll placate.  If you know that a person is transgender, then that person will almost certainly have a preferred gender - so use the appropriate pronoun for that gender.  If the person is of non-binary gender, you could use the pronoun preferred by that person.  Or you could just not use a pronoun at all, repeating the person’s name whenever necessary (which is what I do whenever I don’t know the person’s gender).

You ‘win’ arguments only in your own mind and only after you’ve applied the principle of charity and ascribed nothing more to the other person’s argument than what is actually being made.

Ah, here they goes again...

I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

 LOL

You don’t have to read my comments if you don’t want to.  No one is making you read them.  The great majority of the stuff on the Internet is of absolutely no interest to me.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2019, 07:40:55 AM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.

Oh god no. Please, no.

You don’t ‘win’ an argument by making strawman arguments.  You don’t ‘win’ arguments by ascribing more claims to a person who is arguing something different to what you’re arguing.

To give a recent example.  I argued that ‘they’ should not be used to refer to single identified persons of readily ascertainable gender, and that if it’s considered desirable to have a nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  And you stated that you use the ‘singular they’ so as not to have to offend someone who’d prefer ‘he’ or ‘she’ not to be used, eventually mentioning transgender and non-binary gender persons.

My point is that the overwhelming majority of people want to be referred to as either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  Using ‘they’ just in case will offend more people than you’ll placate.  If you know that a person is transgender, then that person will almost certainly have a preferred gender - so use the appropriate pronoun for that gender.  If the person is of non-binary gender, you could use the pronoun preferred by that person.  Or you could just not use a pronoun at all, repeating the person’s name whenever necessary (which is what I do whenever I don’t know the person’s gender).

You ‘win’ arguments only in your own mind and only after you’ve applied the principle of charity and ascribed nothing more to the other person’s argument than what is actually being made.

Ah, here they goes again...

I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

 LOL

You don’t have to read my comments if you don’t want to.  No one is making you read them.  The great majority of the stuff on the Internet is of absolutely no interest to me.

Why would I stop reading them, the are hilarious. Please continue.
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Offline Billzbub

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2019, 11:18:03 AM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.

Oh god no. Please, no.

You don’t ‘win’ an argument by making strawman arguments.  You don’t ‘win’ arguments by ascribing more claims to a person who is arguing something different to what you’re arguing.

To give a recent example.  I argued that ‘they’ should not be used to refer to single identified persons of readily ascertainable gender, and that if it’s considered desirable to have a nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  And you stated that you use the ‘singular they’ so as not to have to offend someone who’d prefer ‘he’ or ‘she’ not to be used, eventually mentioning transgender and non-binary gender persons.

My point is that the overwhelming majority of people want to be referred to as either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  Using ‘they’ just in case will offend more people than you’ll placate.  If you know that a person is transgender, then that person will almost certainly have a preferred gender - so use the appropriate pronoun for that gender.  If the person is of non-binary gender, you could use the pronoun preferred by that person.  Or you could just not use a pronoun at all, repeating the person’s name whenever necessary (which is what I do whenever I don’t know the person’s gender).

You ‘win’ arguments only in your own mind and only after you’ve applied the principle of charity and ascribed nothing more to the other person’s argument than what is actually being made.

Wow I was just joking.  I didn't realize you would actually do it.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2019, 11:21:54 AM »
Hey, don't libel him.  >:D
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Offline Billzbub

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2019, 12:06:37 PM »
Hey, don't libel him.  >:D

Do I look like a libelizer to you?   ::)
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gleefully altering one’s beliefs to accommodate new information should be a badge of honor

Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2019, 03:52:13 PM »
The way you argue with libertarian global warming deniers is that you address the strongest arguments they’re actually making, not the arguments you would prefer to be countering (which is just attacking straw man arguments).  And you should apply the charity principle - if you’re not sure what argument they’re making, then you should ask them - perhaps starting with ‘if I understand you, you’re saying...?’

And you ‘win’ if you can address all the arguments they’re making, and convince an independent third person that you have the better factual arguments on your side.

You won’t convince a person who is a global warming denier because of ideological reasons.  You might convince a person who is a global warming denier because of worldview reasons.  Ideologies proscribe what should be done, and are difficult to budge.  Worldviews explain how the world came to be as it is, and can be changed with new information.

Our current Australian prime minister Scott ‘stop the boats, coal is good’ Morrison is a devout Presbyterian (which rejects global warming for ideological reasons), so his concern regarding global warming is minimal at best.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2019, 07:51:12 PM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2019, 09:53:15 PM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2019, 10:32:53 PM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2019, 12:38:47 AM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2019, 12:46:55 AM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.
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Offline Billzbub

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2019, 10:49:39 AM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You two should be senators in America.
Quote from: Steven Novella
gleefully altering one’s beliefs to accommodate new information should be a badge of honor

Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2019, 11:55:50 AM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You two should be senators in America.

So should you since you were the one who did the original "libeling" only to claim innocence later.  >:D

 All Arth did was comment on it which I guess is what we are waiting for bachfiend to concede or argue further.

How do you argue with (non-libertarian) libeler deniers?
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Offline Billzbub

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2019, 12:51:42 PM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You two should be senators in America.

So should you since you were the one who did the original "libeling" only to claim innocence later.  >:D

 All Arth did was comment on it which I guess is what we are waiting for bachfiend to concede or argue further.

How do you argue with (non-libertarian) libeler deniers?

If I was a senator I would introduce lots of Billz.
Quote from: Steven Novella
gleefully altering one’s beliefs to accommodate new information should be a badge of honor

Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2019, 01:01:25 PM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You two should be senators in America.

Art4Sen!
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