Author Topic: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?  (Read 2969 times)

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Offline Gig

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2019, 02:06:01 PM »
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Blah blah blah.....

If I started my post by calling everyone an idiot, pretty much anything I say after that isn’t going to make any difference at all.


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Wait, are you calling me an idiot! >:D

Actually, I tend to agree with this.  As I may have mentioned, I'd start by getting them do define their position and tell you what they would need to convince them they are wrong.  You can quickly figure out if its even possible to change their mind.
I disagree that one can quickly figure out if it’s possible to change somebody, but that’s another argument. What I do know, from long experience, is you have to connect with another person, you have to get them to realize you understand their points, their point of view, where they are coming from, how they are thinking, if you want to be able to get through to them. The very last thing that is effective is to alienate them, anger them, or insult them. The mind snaps shut, and you have no influence on them after that.



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Offline Gig

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2019, 02:07:40 PM »
I am using my phone to post, and something seems to of gone wrong with the above commentary. I thought I was quoting in responding but there is some other weird message instead. My apologies


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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2019, 02:15:45 PM »
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I disagree that one can quickly figure out if it’s possible to change somebody, but that’s another argument. What I do know, from long experience, is you have to connect with another person, you have to get them to realize you understand their points, their point of view, where they are coming from, how they are thinking, if you want to be able to get through to them. The very last thing that is effective is to alienate them, anger them, or insult them. The mind snaps shut, and you have no influence on them after that.

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I do not disagree with you, I think what we clearly agree on, is you have to understand their position before you can hope to convince them they are wrong.  When you start off by calling them "deniers" you will immediately put them on the defensive. 

Perhaps I was unclear though.  What I mean, is that if you can get them to tell you what evidence would change there mind, you can pretty quickly figure out if its even possible to do so.  They may set the bar so high as to be essentially impossible or more likely, they may not even know what could convince them. 

Online bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2019, 02:22:49 PM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You libelled me, and I expect damages, to the order of the damage caused.  Something in the range of one penny.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2019, 02:34:40 PM »
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I disagree that one can quickly figure out if it’s possible to change somebody, but that’s another argument. What I do know, from long experience, is you have to connect with another person, you have to get them to realize you understand their points, their point of view, where they are coming from, how they are thinking, if you want to be able to get through to them. The very last thing that is effective is to alienate them, anger them, or insult them. The mind snaps shut, and you have no influence on them after that.

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I do not disagree with you, I think what we clearly agree on, is you have to understand their position before you can hope to convince them they are wrong.  When you start off by calling them "deniers" you will immediately put them on the defensive. 

Perhaps I was unclear though.  What I mean, is that if you can get them to tell you what evidence would change there mind, you can pretty quickly figure out if its even possible to do so.  They may set the bar so high as to be essentially impossible or more likely, they may not even know what could convince them.

As I’ve noted before, the way you argue with libertarian global warming deniers is that you have to understand what arguments they’re using, and address them not some other arguments you’d prefer to counter.  If you do that, you’re engaging in strawman arguments, and not following the principle of charity in giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.

If you’re uncertain as to what the other person is arguing, then ask for clarification.

You will hardly ever convert another person if an opinion is adopted because of idelogical reasons.  You ‘win’ in arguments if you can convince another independent person that you have the better factual arguments.  Your aim should be to convince other people who were ‘on the femce’ that global warming is happening, that it’s largely caused by humans, that unmitigated it’s likely to be dire, and that it’s worth doing something about it to prevent it happening.
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2019, 05:14:59 PM »
I do not disagree with you, bachfiend.......on this subject.

Generally good advice for any kind of discussion where you are trying to convince people of something.  First step, figure out what they actually believe rather than what you think or wish they believe.  Its often very difficult to do and I find that I fail at more than I'd like. 

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2019, 12:01:24 AM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You libelled me, and I expect damages, to the order of the damage caused.  Something in the range of one penny.

Again, I expect either evidence of the accusation, or a full apology and withdrawal. I will enter into no further discussion.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2019, 03:37:23 AM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You libelled me, and I expect damages, to the order of the damage caused.  Something in the range of one penny.

Again, I expect either evidence of the accusation, or a full apology and withdrawal. I will enter into no further discussion.

Good.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2019, 02:59:11 PM »
I'm at this again. This libertarian guy is not denying warming, perhaps even not that humans are behind it. He criticizes what he calls the "doomsday rhetoric". I pointed to forecasts about what it might be like, and he dismissed it as just "forecasts and guesses". I'm like, what does it take?
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2019, 04:41:32 PM »
I've given up trying to convince my Climate Change Denying boss. He is too far down the rabbit hole. His laptop is full of graphs, charts and information he has gathered from his right-wing websites.

I have tried arguing, but he won't be convinced and he gets quite heated if you push him too far. Me and my co-worker purposely push him too far  ;)

He also has a problem with me being an atheist and socialist. He is a church goer and into far-right politics (He loves Trump) (No surprise that he's from rural north Queensland)
and he also is a career miner with an engineering degree who goes looking for minerals with a fucking dowsing rod. I pissed my self laughing the first time I saw him do that  ;D Now I just shake my head.
Thankfully we use actual real science to determine where we mine.

He is a nice guy and I get on well with him, but I can't help niggling him when I see a news story on climate change  ;)
We have found that our passionate love of sports is a safer topic to talk about at work.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2019, 04:55:08 PM »
I am always sorely tempted to tell climate change deniers (and fans of medical quackery) that they are fucking morons. I do my best to keep quiet, and in my old age I manage that better than I used to do. Climate change denialism is a form of religion. Evidence and logic are not going to convince the die-hard deniers. But putting the evidence out there can help the lurkers come to logical conclusions.

Libertarianism is the political philosophy for people who don't believe in sharing or social responsibility. They want to be able to keep all the money they make for themselves. They say that spending on public works and public safety should be local and voluntary, but none of them will ever contribute. They hope everyone else will and they can get a free ride. Libertarianism is radical selfishness elevated to a political philosophy. They deny climate change because they don't want to be taxed to clean up their own mess. They'd rather suck up all the Earth's resources and leave a wasteland behind them for the following generations.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2019, 05:53:28 PM »
I am always sorely tempted to tell climate change deniers (and fans of medical quackery) that they are fucking morons. I do my best to keep quiet, and in my old age I manage that better than I used to do. Climate change denialism is a form of religion. Evidence and logic are not going to convince the die-hard deniers. But putting the evidence out there can help the lurkers come to logical conclusions.

Libertarianism is the political philosophy for people who don't believe in sharing or social responsibility. They want to be able to keep all the money they make for themselves. They say that spending on public works and public safety should be local and voluntary, but none of them will ever contribute. They hope everyone else will and they can get a free ride. Libertarianism is radical selfishness elevated to a political philosophy. They deny climate change because they don't want to be taxed to clean up their own mess. They'd rather suck up all the Earth's resources and leave a wasteland behind them for the following generations.

none of that accurately describes this libertarian who does not deny climate change nor do any of my close libertarian friends.

Are we now going to go back to the blanket generalizations about libertarians on this forum about what villains we must all be in your eyes?



« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 05:58:18 PM by Captain Video »
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2019, 05:56:52 PM »
I'm at this again. This libertarian guy is not denying warming, perhaps even not that humans are behind it. He criticizes what he calls the "doomsday rhetoric". I pointed to forecasts about what it might be like, and he dismissed it as just "forecasts and guesses". I'm like, what does it take?

It actually sounds to me like you are making progress. At least the initial denial part is gone.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2019, 12:12:14 PM »
I am always sorely tempted to tell climate change deniers (and fans of medical quackery) that they are fucking morons. I do my best to keep quiet, and in my old age I manage that better than I used to do. Climate change denialism is a form of religion. Evidence and logic are not going to convince the die-hard deniers. But putting the evidence out there can help the lurkers come to logical conclusions.

Libertarianism is the political philosophy for people who don't believe in sharing or social responsibility. They want to be able to keep all the money they make for themselves. They say that spending on public works and public safety should be local and voluntary, but none of them will ever contribute. They hope everyone else will and they can get a free ride. Libertarianism is radical selfishness elevated to a political philosophy. They deny climate change because they don't want to be taxed to clean up their own mess. They'd rather suck up all the Earth's resources and leave a wasteland behind them for the following generations.

none of that accurately describes this libertarian who does not deny climate change nor do any of my close libertarian friends.

Are we now going to go back to the blanket generalizations about libertarians on this forum about what villains we must all be in your eyes?

I agree with you. We should not simply assume that people of other political persuasions are necessarily evil or malicious.

I have a fairly good friend who is libertarian(ish). He is also a skeptic. He is not at all like daniel1948 describes what he should be like.
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