Author Topic: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?  (Read 1807 times)

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Offline Gig

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2019, 02:06:01 PM »
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Blah blah blah.....

If I started my post by calling everyone an idiot, pretty much anything I say after that isn’t going to make any difference at all.


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Wait, are you calling me an idiot! >:D

Actually, I tend to agree with this.  As I may have mentioned, I'd start by getting them do define their position and tell you what they would need to convince them they are wrong.  You can quickly figure out if its even possible to change their mind.
I disagree that one can quickly figure out if it’s possible to change somebody, but that’s another argument. What I do know, from long experience, is you have to connect with another person, you have to get them to realize you understand their points, their point of view, where they are coming from, how they are thinking, if you want to be able to get through to them. The very last thing that is effective is to alienate them, anger them, or insult them. The mind snaps shut, and you have no influence on them after that.



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Offline Gig

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2019, 02:07:40 PM »
I am using my phone to post, and something seems to of gone wrong with the above commentary. I thought I was quoting in responding but there is some other weird message instead. My apologies


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Online Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2019, 02:15:45 PM »
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I disagree that one can quickly figure out if it’s possible to change somebody, but that’s another argument. What I do know, from long experience, is you have to connect with another person, you have to get them to realize you understand their points, their point of view, where they are coming from, how they are thinking, if you want to be able to get through to them. The very last thing that is effective is to alienate them, anger them, or insult them. The mind snaps shut, and you have no influence on them after that.

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I do not disagree with you, I think what we clearly agree on, is you have to understand their position before you can hope to convince them they are wrong.  When you start off by calling them "deniers" you will immediately put them on the defensive. 

Perhaps I was unclear though.  What I mean, is that if you can get them to tell you what evidence would change there mind, you can pretty quickly figure out if its even possible to do so.  They may set the bar so high as to be essentially impossible or more likely, they may not even know what could convince them. 

Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2019, 02:22:49 PM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You libelled me, and I expect damages, to the order of the damage caused.  Something in the range of one penny.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2019, 02:34:40 PM »
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I disagree that one can quickly figure out if it’s possible to change somebody, but that’s another argument. What I do know, from long experience, is you have to connect with another person, you have to get them to realize you understand their points, their point of view, where they are coming from, how they are thinking, if you want to be able to get through to them. The very last thing that is effective is to alienate them, anger them, or insult them. The mind snaps shut, and you have no influence on them after that.

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I do not disagree with you, I think what we clearly agree on, is you have to understand their position before you can hope to convince them they are wrong.  When you start off by calling them "deniers" you will immediately put them on the defensive. 

Perhaps I was unclear though.  What I mean, is that if you can get them to tell you what evidence would change there mind, you can pretty quickly figure out if its even possible to do so.  They may set the bar so high as to be essentially impossible or more likely, they may not even know what could convince them.

As I’ve noted before, the way you argue with libertarian global warming deniers is that you have to understand what arguments they’re using, and address them not some other arguments you’d prefer to counter.  If you do that, you’re engaging in strawman arguments, and not following the principle of charity in giving the other person the benefit of the doubt.

If you’re uncertain as to what the other person is arguing, then ask for clarification.

You will hardly ever convert another person if an opinion is adopted because of idelogical reasons.  You ‘win’ in arguments if you can convince another independent person that you have the better factual arguments.  Your aim should be to convince other people who were ‘on the femce’ that global warming is happening, that it’s largely caused by humans, that unmitigated it’s likely to be dire, and that it’s worth doing something about it to prevent it happening.
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Online Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2019, 05:14:59 PM »
I do not disagree with you, bachfiend.......on this subject.

Generally good advice for any kind of discussion where you are trying to convince people of something.  First step, figure out what they actually believe rather than what you think or wish they believe.  Its often very difficult to do and I find that I fail at more than I'd like. 

Online arthwollipot

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2019, 12:01:24 AM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You libelled me, and I expect damages, to the order of the damage caused.  Something in the range of one penny.

Again, I expect either evidence of the accusation, or a full apology and withdrawal. I will enter into no further discussion.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2019, 03:37:23 AM »
I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

Presumably you're going to show evidence of such an accusation.

You’re libelling me when you persistently misrepresent my views in print.

Again, you're going to show evidence of such an accusation, right?

At the risk of ‘irritating’ other readers, all I’ve ever said is that ‘they’ should not be used for a single identified person of readily identified gender.  I agree that a person can use the ‘singular they’ in other circumstances if they want (see?  I use the ‘singular they’ too.  But ‘a person’ isn’t ‘a single identified person of readily identified gender’).  You’ve had me claiming things I have never said.

So no evidence then. Libel is a serious accusation. If you can demonstrate that I have libelled you, I could go to jail. I expect a full retraction and apology.

You libelled me, and I expect damages, to the order of the damage caused.  Something in the range of one penny.

Again, I expect either evidence of the accusation, or a full apology and withdrawal. I will enter into no further discussion.

Good.
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